Luftwaffe forestry knife Waffen-Loesche Ch. A. W.

[gerrit]

Fred i have seen dozens of these Loesche blades and they were always properly stamp by a Loesche die
The Ch. A. W. differs in size on some they are large, mostly you see the smaler version.
I have sofar never saw 1 marked with individual letters instead of the standard die.

Remarkable find you have there, im curious what you think it could mean.....

Ger

[Frogprince]

Fred i have seen dozens of these Loesche blades and they were always properly stamp by a Loesche die
The Ch. A. W. differs in size on some they are large, mostly you see the smaler version.
I have sofar never saw 1 marked with individual letters instead of the standard die.

Remarkable find you have there, im curious what you think it could mean.....

Ger

Ger, We are seeing it the same way. Attached is a digitally inverted image technique that I've used in the past for contrast that may be of some help to other viewers. The knife itself otherwise seemed to be like what you might normally expect. Not that it's directly related to this topic, for a different topic it took me at least several years of collecting focused information before a verifiable conclusion was reached. In that case it was the hard to find high definition images that made the difference. As for right now I'm curious to see if anyone else might have one of these knives that is different (or the same) to see if it sheds some more light on them as a group. While I see if I have some additional examples that I may have archived earlier on an out of service computer when I upgraded. Best Regards, Fred

[Anderson]

Interesting. But what's it on? Not really the trade mark style seen on the other Waffen Loesche knives. No hyphen between the words so I would think suspect.

[Frogprince]

Interesting. But what's it on? Not really the trade mark style seen on the other Waffen Loesche knives. No hyphen between the words so I would think suspect.

Anderson, the (so-called) "Luftwaffe Forestry: Waffen-Loesche Ch. A. W." knife, with the previously edited images of the markings in the first set is something that I found while looking for something else. The knife itself other than the blade markings looking to be a reasonably normal example. As Ger mentioned there are some variations, but this example is definitely not one of them. Best Regards, Fred

[Larry C]

A bit of a manufacturers oddity IMO and also seen with the 3 Burgsmuller NPEA logo types also using the Hyphen.

Type 1 has the hyphen with Charlottenburg and number 5 at the end
Type 2 had NO hyphen No Charlottenburg
Type 2a no hyphen and no Charlottenburg 5

all had Berlin as city.

Just thinking outloud as there are variances but I can not attest exactly for Ch AW logo.

Regards Larry

[71Mach]

I picked this up about a year ago….it has the distributor mark Waffen Loesche Berlin.
It is not marked on the spine or does not have the Ch A.W. Stamp. It looks original and the stag horn handle has a nice firm fit , complete with original brown leather frog. Any further info or opinions would be appreciated . Thanks for looking.

[Anderson]

Yes another of the un-marked versions of this enigma knife. As you note, Waffen Loesche was the distributor, rather than the maker. Most we see seem to be numbered with what could be an issue number and have the Ch A.W. mark as well. The jury is still out on the history of these, there is a sticky thread in the edged weapons Luftwaffe forum "Luftwaffe Forestry knife", on these knives and probably good idea to move your thread there.
Thanks for sharing another example of these interesting knives.

[Larry C]

Posts have been moved to this Luftwaffe Forestry thread

[gerrit]

Final results:

I guess following is the only proper explanation.

Abbrevement Ch A.W. is Chef des Ausbildungswesens.
The proper abbrevement for Chef is Ch
It also explains the numbering on most of the blades, they are Kammerstempel - inventory numbers.
It also explains the Horn grips, as the Luftwaffe permitted the use of Standhauers for Foresty Students in their regulations.

Dienstkleidungsvorschrift-Uniform regulations
4. Hirschfänger
c).
translated:
Candidates of the higher forest service and Forestry Students wear a Standhauer instead of a Hirschfänger

That simply makes Waffen-Loesche the maker ( or at least they ordered the parts, as it was a big company in the days)

Below a picture of the Luftwaffe regulations about the standhauer.
So imo Thomas Johnson was right to design this Knife as a Luftwaffe Forestry NCO, look at the Luftwaffe Regulations 4. C (Standhauer for Forestry Student or Candidate of the higher forest service)
Chromolit was purely an assumption published in a book, and everyone just copied it and made it "truth" we see that all the time The Ch.. romolit Logo also do not match the Ch font on the Loesche Knife.

Online you can find an artical published by the Bundesarchiv Freiburg that gives following info in German, here the google translated text:

From the Federal Archives Freiburg:



Head of Training / General of Aviation Training
IDENTIFICATIONRL 4LANGUAGE OF DESCRIPTIONGermanDATE OR PERIOD1 Jan 1929 - 31 Dec 1945DIRECTORY LEVELCollectionLANGUAGES

German
SOURCEEHRI partner

ONLINE SOURCE
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/inve...-97585e4b5010/

SCOPE AND MEDIUM
written material

153 storage units

11.3 linear meters

PROVENANCE POINT(S)
Training departments in the Reich Aviation Ministry (with inspections and weapons generals), 1939-1945
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
History of the inventory designer

The Chief of Training Department (Chief AW) was formed in February 1939 to relieve the burden on the 3rd (Training) Department of the General Staff of the Air Force, which was then limited to tactical training. According to the instructions of the Reich Minister of the Air Force, the Chief AW took over all remaining training of the Air Force.

Equipped with the position and disciplinary powers of a commanding general, he had the right to monitor the training orders issued and to attend the service of the units to check the training status of the troops. However, he did not exercise direct command over the troops.

The head of the training system was structured as follows:

training department,
Regulations and teaching materials department,
Strength and Equipment Department,
Aerial Photography Department.
The Strength and Equipment Department, responsible for the internal structure of the units and their personnel and material plan in cooperation with the 2nd (Organizational) Department of the General Staff, was placed under the head of the Air Force in April 1940. As part of the restructuring in the areas of motor transport and supplies, the department was briefly subordinate to the Quartermaster General in 1943 and again to the head of the air force in autumn 1943.

In May 1944, the now independent Department 3 (strength and equipment of the Air Force) was subordinated to the Air Force Wehramt (at the same time the General for the Air Force's personnel deployment) and at the same time the Air Force Wehramt was subordinate to the Chief of Personnel Armaments and Nazi Command. In January 1945 the Strength and Equipment Department was placed under the control of the Quartermaster General (see: RL 2-III).

The Aerial Photography Department, which was taken over by the Inspection of Reconnaissance Aviation and Aerial Photography (L In 1) in 1939, was subordinated to the General of Reconnaissance Aviation in January 1943.

The head of the AW initially reported directly to the Inspector General of the Air Force, from April 1940 to the Chief of the Air Force, from the end of 1942 again to the Inspector General of the Air Force, and from autumn 1944 to the General Staff of the Air Force.

Around July 1943, the Chief AW office was renamed General of Aviation Training. In March 1945 the name was changed to Commanding General of Aviation Training.

Since February 1939, Air Force Inspections 1-14 were subordinate to Chief AW, and from April 1940 only Air Force Inspections 1-3, 8-10 and 12. Further inspections were separated from being subordinate to Chief AW. The inspection of the pilot schools (L In 9) was dissolved in March 1943. The tasks were assigned to the training department. transferred to the boss AW. In the fall of 1943, only the inspection of the education and training system of the air force (L In 10) was subordinate to the general of pilot training, until this inspection was also subordinate to the general staff of the air force as the general for military training.

With the reorganization of the inspections into weapons generals, these were put on an equal footing with the chief AW or general of pilot training.



For the purist here the German text:
Aus dem Bundesarchiv Freiburg:



Chef des Ausbildungswesens / General der Fliegerausbildung
IDENTIFIKATORRL 4SPRACHE DER BESCHREIBUNGDeutschDATUM ODER ZEITRAUM1 Jan 1929 - 31 Dec 1945VERZEICHNUNGSSTUFESammlungSPRACHEN

Deutsch
QUELLEEHRI-Partner

ONLINE-QUELLE
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/inve...-97585e4b5010/

UMFANG UND MEDIUM
Schriftgut

153 Aufbewahrungseinheiten

11,3 laufende Meter

PROVENIENZSTELLE(N)
Ausbildungsdienststellen im Reichsluftfahrtministerium (mit Inspektionen und Waffengeneralen), 1939-1945
BIOGRAFISCHE ANGABEN
Geschichte des Bestandsbildners

Die Dienststelle Chef des Ausbildungswesens (Chef AW) wurde im Februar 1939 zur Entlastung der 3. (Ausbildungs-)Abteilung des Generalstabes der Luftwaffe gebildet, die danach auf die taktische Ausbildung beschränkt wurde. Der Chef AW übernahm nach den Weisungen des Reichsministers der Luftwaffe die gesamte übrige Ausbildung der Luftwaffe.

Gleichsam mit Dienststellung und Disziplinarbefugnissen eines Kommandierenden Generals ausgestattet, hatte er das Recht, die erlassenen Ausbildungsanordnungen zu überwachen und zur Prüfung des Ausbildungsstandes der Truppe dem Dienst der Einheiten beizuwohnen. Eine unmittelbare Kommandogewalt gegenüber der Truppe übte er jedoch nicht aus.

Der Chef des Ausbildungswesens gliederte sich wie folgt:

Ausbildungsabteilung,
Vorschriften- und Lehrmittelabteilung,
Abteilung Stärke und Ausrüstung,
Abteilung Luftbildwesen.
Die Abteilung Stärke und Ausrüstung, zuständig für die innere Gliederung der Einheiten und deren personelles und materielles Plansoll in Zusammenarbeit mit der 2. (Organisations-)Abteilung des Generalstabes, wurde im April 1940 unter den Chef der Luftwehr gestellt. Im Zuge der Umstrukturierungen im Bereich des Kraftfahrwesens und des Nachschubwesens war die Abteilung 1943 für kurze Zeit dem Generalquartiermeister unterstellt, im Herbst 1943 wieder dem Chef der Luftwehr.

Im Mai 1944 wurde die jetzt selbständige Abteilung 3 (Stärke und Ausrüstung der Luftwaffe) dem Luftwaffen-Wehramt (zugleich General für den Personaleinsatz der Luftwaffe) unterstellt unter gleichzeitiger Unterstellung des Luftwaffen-Wehramtes unter den Chef der Personellen Rüstung und NS-Führung. Im Jan. 1945 wurde die Abteilung Stärke und Ausrüstung dem Generalquartiermeister unterstellt (siehe: RL 2-III).

Die Abteilung Luftbildwesen, 1939 von der Inspektion der Aufklärungsflieger und des Luftbildwesens (L In 1) übernommen, wurde im Januar 1943 dem General der Aufklärungsflieger unterstellt.

Der Chef AW unterstand zunächst unmittelbar dem Generalinspekteur der Luftwaffe, seit April 1940 dem Chef der Luftwehr, ab Ende 1942 wieder dem Generalinspekteur der Luftwaffe, ab Herbst 1944 dem Generalstab der Luftwaffe.

Ca. Juli 1943 wurde die Dienststelle Chef AW in General der Fliegerausbildung umbenannt. Noch im März 1945 erfolgte die Umbenennung in Kommandierender General der Fliegerausbildung.

Seit Februar 1939 unterstanden die Luftwaffen-Inspektionen 1-14 dem Chef AW, ab Apr. 1940 nur noch die Luftwaffen-Inspektionen 1-3, 8-10 und 12. Weitere Inspektionen wurden aus der Unterstellung unter dem Chef AW herausgelöst. Die Inspektion der Flugzeugführerschulen (L In 9) wurde im März 1943 aufgelöst. Die Aufgaben wurden der Ausbildungs-Abt. beim Chef AW übertragen. Im Herbst 1943 unterstand nur noch die Inspektion des Erziehungs- und Bildungswesens der Luftwaffe (L In 10) dem General der Fliegerausbildung, bis auch diese Inspektion als General für militärische Ausbildung dem Generalstab der Luftwaffe unterstellt wurde.

Mit der Umorganisation der Inspektionen in Waffengeneralen wurden diese dem Chef AW bzw. General der Fliegerausbildung gleichgestellt.

Cheers,
Ger