It says '34 in the original document:by dimitrov2012
I took it to mean that they had already tried to determine the unclear origins of the brownshirt during a meeting in 1934.
However, if you think about it, it is very well possible that the date was simply a typo and that the text actually refers to discussing the proposal to introduce the shirt during a meeting in 1924.
Do let me be clear here: this item is from the mid to late 1930s.
I think the document is correct. Was there such a thing as an SA Fuehrertagung in May 1924? And was Roehm then in a position to call such a meeting?It says '34 in the original document:
I took it to mean that they had already tried to determine the unclear origins of the brownshirt during a meeting in 1934.
However, if you think about it, it is very well possible that the date was simply a typo and that the text actually refers to discussing the proposal to introduce the shirt during a meeting in 1924.
Wasn't he in exile outside of Europe? Thanks to Andreas for all his superb work and Wim, as ever, for the marvelous documents.
Oops. I wrote too soon. You see. One has to check. From the wonderful Bayern Lexikon, which Andreas will also know.
"...
Die Verbotszeit der SA 1923-1925: Röhm und der Frontbann
Ernst Röhm, der von Hitler mit der der militärischen Leitung des verbotenen Kampfbunds und der inzwischen verbotenen SA beauftragt worden war, setzte sich nach seiner Haftentlassung (1. April 1924) bei einer am 17. und 18. Mai 1924 in Salzburg abgehaltenen Tagung als SA-Führer anstelle Görings durch.
Röhm entwickelte Richtlinien für eine Reorganisierung der SA. Schon 1924 waren außerhalb Bayerns unter Decknamen oder als Teil anderer Verbände erste SA-Gruppen im Ruhrgebiet und Westfalen und auch einige in Nord-, Ost- und Mitteldeutschland entstanden, wobei jedoch die Mitgliederfluktuation innerhalb des Spektrums der Wehrverbände sehr stark war.
Zusätzlich entwarf Röhm Pläne für eine reichsweite, von der Partei unabhängige Wehrbewegung namens "Frontbann". Die immer noch verbotene SA sollte den Kern der Bewegung bilden, die aber auch anderen Wehrverbänden offen stand. Obwohl Hitler diesen Plan ablehnte, da er befürchtete, solche Aktivitäten könnten seine Freilassung gefährden und die SA könne ihm entzogen werden, gelang Röhm im August 1924 die Gründung des "Frontbann". Dieser zählte bald etwa 30.000 Anhänger..."
The scholarly history of the SA is that of Longerich, who later has become Himmler's biographer.
Indeed; I know the Historisches Lexikon Bayerns... But I must admit I hadn't thought of looking there for additional information on the subject at hand.
The site is recommended to all German-speaking members. Here are links to its homepage and the SA article:
https://www.historisches-lexikon-bay...kon/Hauptseite
https://www.historisches-lexikon-bay...1923/1925-1945
For the benefit of the non-German speaking members, here is a translation of the text quoted by FB:
"The period of the SA ban 1923 - 1925: Röhm and the Frontbann
After his release from prison (1 April 1924), Ernst Röhm, whom Hitler had charged with the military command of the banned Kampfbund and the by then also banned SA, established himself as the SA leader instead of Göring during a meeting held in Salzburg on 17 and 18 May 1924.
Röhm developed guidelines for a reorganization of the SA. In 1924, the first SA groups outside of Bavaria had already been formed in the Ruhrgebiet and Westphalia as well as a few in North-, East- and Central Germany, going under false names or existing as part of other organisations, although the membership fluctuation within the range of the para-military organisations was very high.
Furthermore, Röhm drafted plans for a nationwide defense movement called 'Frontbann', which was to be independent of the Party. The still-banned SA was to form the nucleus of the movement, which, however, was also open to other para-military organisations. Although Hitler rejected this plan, as he feared that such activities might endanger his release from prison and that he might lose control of the SA, Röhm succeeded in founding the 'Frontbann' in 1924. It soon had some 30,000 followers."
So there actually was an SA leaders' conference in Salzburg on 17 May 1924, and an important one for Röhm at that (and surely one that Göring, too, remembered a decade later, methinks). Apparently, the 1934 date in the memo is a typo indeed.
[/QUOTE]So there actually was an SA leaders' conference in Salzburg on 17 May 1924, and an important one for Röhm at that (and surely one that Göring, too, remembered a decade later, methinks). Apparently, the 1934 date in the memo is a typo indeed..[/QUOTE]
Agreed, 1924. an old typo. I hadn't realised that Rohm was released from prison April 1st of that year, which means the salzburg meeting with he, Rossbach and Goering could not have come earlier than that.
Several translated sources describe that meeting, its attendees and discussion
Here are a few relevant passages, although I'm not entirely sure of their chronological sequence
from Rossbach's book:
He mentions major ideological differences between him and Hitler
" For brown shirt, I would say that the introduced me Lettow-shirt was later Hitler Shirt equal either in color or in section"
" These shirts were beige-brown, so much brighter than the later Hitler-shirts and studded with white pearloid buttons.
Later I introduced in 1924 these shirts as a community clothes in my organization and also in the Salzburg Schill Youth.
By Edmund Heines they were then taken over for the SA and also marketed.
Their color was darker from month to month. So I may be the liquidator of Lettow-shirt, but not the inventor of the "original" Brown shirt was, as later often claimed. "
excerpted from Georg-Franz Willing book:
" The Braunhemd came up in the year 1924, so it didn't exist in the old party, which was terminated and banned after the Putsch of 9th November 1923. It originated from the Freikorps leader Gerhard Roßbach.
On a meeting in Salzburg in the year 1924 between Röhm, Göring and Roßbach, Röhm raised the question of the uniforming of the SA. Roßbach refered to the khaki shirt he wore. Röhm said: „This looks good“, while Göring nodded approvingly.
(The meeting this text is talking about took place on the 17th of May 1924
So the Braunhemd was introduced by Röhm on Roßbachs proposal and taken over by Hitler.
Heines opened up a shop in Munich to sell Braunhemden, which was taken over by the party.
A man named Fritz Patzelt came to Hitler while he was still in Landsberg on the 9th of June 1924 to present him the so called "Salzburger Braunhemd" and on the same date he ordered it to be the official shirt
In a salzburg meeting in 1924 (probably April when the Frontbann was formed) Rossbach first wore the khaki shirt and suggested it could be the new uniform worn by the Frontbann ( a reorganized and renamed version of the SA. It was created in April 1924 as a substitute for the then banned SA in the aftermath of the failed "Beer Hall Putsch" of November 1923. 1924 April - until ordered disbanded 1925 February 27 ), Rohm agreed and so did Goering, Heine(s?) got the contract to produce them in Munich.
According to Wilfred Von Oven (SA Mann), Goring had an Adjudant named Gerhard Rossbach, Rossbach knew of a store of Imperial Army shirts destined for General Von Lettow-Vorbecks troops in Africa, they were never shipped to Africa due to the war ending, Rossbach did a deal with a friend Edmund Heines, who he fought with in the Ruhr.
Through the firm Sportversand Schill owned by Edmund Heines the shirts were bought, Heines went on to join the SA as we know.
This was 1924, according to Von Oven the shirts were referred to as "Lettow shirts".
Hitler, according to Von Oven, didnt like the colour Brown
The Braun shirt, which had been publicly known for the first time at the party conference in Weimar in 1926 ... so-called Lettow-Vorbeck shirts,
The party shirt, which was also officially designated as "Braunhemd" later, was ... protection groups in Africa under Lettow-Vorbeck the SA of the NSDAP comes to their name "Braunhemden".
First (1920-1923) the former soldiers in the SA carried their military uniform. Members, who were not a soldier before, were wearing gray windjackets as uniforms.
After his return Rossbach introduced these shirts in the SA, which were worn as a "Lettow shirt"
from 1924 onwards. [5]
In an oral discussion with Georg Franz-Willing
Roßbach explained that he had a decisive influence on the appearance of the Braunhemd. [15] It is also described in the "Honorary Book of the SA" of 1934 (Ehrenbuch der SA“ von 1934) that the brown shirt was originally worn by the "Rossbach Divisions" of the SA
(Rossbach Divisions" of the SA) and was used for the first time on 5 April 1925. [16] It is therefore also quite conceivable that Rossbach wanted to dissociate himself from the Nazi regime with his original statement of a "chance discovery". The uniform had to be purchased by every SA-man himself, which is why one often sees incomplete SA members on (especially early) pictures.
As concerns the above, you have from the secondary accounts in the III. Reich part of your story.
That is not enough by any proper scholarly standard, of course.
Wim and Andreas offered the primary sources from the Hauptarchiv d. NSDAP, and that place is where the real answer lies.
And no one can fathom whatever color these 1924-1927 shirts truly were, unless one really does endure with a provenance that made sense and so forth.
Added to this issue is the variety of dyes of cotton and so forth.
There are riddles and mysteries in the past none of us will decipher, and, as flashy and startling as the internet may be, it is no substitute for real research
in the classical mode.
Also, since we have done a lot of work for you, please join this site with a contribution. You have gotten a lot more than USD 25 of value from us.
You should also go to Salzburg and or Vienna and or the Austrian Resistance research institute (they are the source on Austria and the III. Reich) and look for files there, too.
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