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Hitler, Himmler, Goering and many others are spinning in their graves.....and the hand finishing on the breast feathers was heavy handed, done to the mould before the metal was poured. DANMARK would need a cold chisel, not a buffer to make those feathers afterwards, drunk or not.
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10-13-2017 12:36 AM
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by
Larry C
These swords were deemed non political and were not under RZM control..yet some SS officers wore them in parade...but not sanctioned politically by the SS.
SS degens were considered " Kultural " or those marked by specific producers and thus separated from the RZM.
SA , SS NSKK and HJ ..Political branches..swords not included.
Field Marshall swords of the Third Reich not under any political control except from the producers QC department within.
My dog in this fight is not with the authenticity of the sword and its components..its for the fact of the NS doctrine and what the Swastika stood for.
The fittings debate are for the current participants.
Onward and forward Gents ....Great Thread
Regards Larry
In agreement, no RZM intervention. Traditionally sword makers could make private purchase swords using their own designs, some of which had the equivalent to a copyright giving them an exclusive license. Some early SS pictures showing generic WW I style sabers with crossed swords on the langets, those presented by HH and other Degens like the German Police examples were also outside RZM control. Not disagreeing that how could a company in the TR era mess up that badly???? I have no idea....... And was vehemently opposed to them when I saw my first example. That said, I have since come to terms with the swords that I think are period, that somehow managed to fly beneath the radar for some reason that could possibly never be adequately explained. Best Regards, Fred
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Fred I think you are avoiding a key point. And that is, for this sword to be before us today as a Voos factory approved product, some Army officer must have bought it to wear with his parade uniform. How likely is it that any officer would want to be seen with a sword with a reverse swastika? That could even be dangerous in the late war period and seen as politically incorrect. And that's Larry's point, recognizing what the NS doctrine and importance of correct symbolism. If the approach was freestyle, as you imply, we would find numerous reverse swastika marked swords and daggers. But we don't see them.
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by
Anderson
Fred I think you are avoiding a key point. And that is, for this sword to be before us today as a Voos factory approved product, some Army officer must have bought it to wear with his parade uniform. How likely is it that any officer would want to be seen with a sword with a reverse swastika? That could even be dangerous in the late war period and seen as politically incorrect. And that's Larry's point, recognizing what the NS doctrine and importance of correct symbolism. If the approach was freestyle, as you imply, we would find numerous reverse swastika marked swords and daggers. But we don't see them.
I am and was not trying to avoid anything and if you read what you wrote on post # 13 you will see that:
by
Anderson
.........................The thread originator claimed to be buying the sword and other items from a German veteran, a KC holder, and the original sword owner. The thread ends with the OP saying he will meet the veteran next week and ask him if he actually owned that sword during the War. He never reported back! I imply from that the answer was not to his liking.......................
Not your ordinary German Officer he was a Knight’s Cross holder, and I know the purchaser (but not personally) who earlier purchased a Knight’s Cross holder’s sword that used to belong a friend of mine who passed away. Said collector more into the higher end of things than most folks. Answering as follows with post # 19:
by
Frogprince
If you look at the currently running WAF thread on this topic @ post # 7 I think you will see that he thought it was OK and purchased it...................
And who wore swords in the late period? Pistols were the order of the day, and datable orders were issued regarding what uniforms were acceptable in the later period that were different than the early years. The manufacturing of dress blades themselves for practical purposes effectively stopping in early 1942 that was formalized in 1943. Lastly: 1) None of the swords I posted came from my own collection. They were a sample of some of the ones that are in general circulation that I found interesting enough to use for comparing to others. 2) The Knight’s Cross holder not only survived the war 2a) He survived it with as you say a “politically incorrect” sword in a very dangerous time, possibly even wearing it when he was awarded the KC, or not as I have no additional information. Best Regards, Fred
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FROGPRINCE.....I suggest that you need to logically look at the images posted instead of discussing whether angels have sex, as is said in Italian.....signed.....Doug.
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Hello to all,
just look how nice discussion we have! Very nice, just imagine if we all are in the pub, all have big tasty beers and discuss this sword I´m sure it will be better discussion than comment fotball match...
Now lets go back to the point. Some of you said that the sowrd design is just so ugly, that it can´t be authentic.... Well, there are a lot of ugly things produced in III. Reich era craftmanship. Look at some army daggers, I mean early ones. For example early wingen with E. Pack crossguard – look how ugly that dagger is (I have it in my Wehrmacht daggers collection thread), or look at early aluminum E. Pack crossguard, it looks very funny and SMF, look at that chicken eagle SMF – despite the fact they are ugly, or less preety they are authentic. Ok, lets continue – general assalut badge, compare some examples – many of them have so funny eagle´s head that they look like they have lobotomy. Ir infantry assalut badges, some of the eagles have so big bulging eyes, also funny look but real think! So when you are say something like that, you just put a sand into our eyes and we can´t see the truth.
It is also very funny to think about story, that the sword was for allied soldiers, and was made from some parts, which were reejected for an error... Now, lets imagine little story how could it be:
Our story begins with two Emil Voos factory workers one rokie – named Helmut and one skilled worker, Emil, the boss. One evening Helmut just get very drung, he celebrated his new work, work in the Emil Voos factory in Solingen. He drink so many beers and also some snaps... now when he wake up in the 5 o clock in the morning, his had is going to blow, oh god how paintfull it is. So Helmut despite the fact is very ill because of alcohol, he decided to go to work. He jus sit behind the work table, look at the unfinished sword parts and start to work. He work so hard, that nobody chcek his work until the late afternoon Emice came across Helmuts work table to check his work:
Emil: Hi Helmut, how it is going in new work?
Helmut: Hi boss, well preety good, just look how many swords parts I just finished!
Emil: Ok, lets have a look.
Now, boss Emil put his thick glasses on the eyes, and his face starting to be red. Helmut start feel that somethink is not good.
Emil: Helmut, what a cock you are!!! Look at the swastikas, you finish them reverse...! I can´t believe my eyes. Oh, god owner will kicks our asses, yours because you are a cock and don´t know where the swastika turn and mine, because I did not chcek your work earlyer.
Helmut: Oh, boss that is terrible mistake, it is my first day in the work, I´m so sorry...
Emil: Shut up Helmut, ok, you know what, just hide this shitty parts under the table and in this evening we go to pub and you own me many beers, because I save your ass!
So Helmut and Emil become best friends and the years pass. Helmut never made a same mistake and do his work very well. But suddenly III. Reich just lost the war and Allied soldiers was everywhere. And each allied soldiers just look for some souvernirs... So Solingen factories, including Emil Voos, sold its all remaining swords to the allied soldiers, until nothing left. Then they finished new edged weapons from the rest of the parts, until nothing left...
Emil: Hi Helmut, hard times?
Helmut: Yes, you are right Emil, very hard times. We have nothing to sell to these allied soldiers. And my wife Inge need new bra and I don´t have money...
Emil: Hey Helmut, remember your first day in the work? In early 1935, wheny you finish a lot of parts with revers rotate swastikas? That was so funny, how stupid you was! But now, try to remember, where you hide them!
Helmut: Ok, here they are! Whey were hide for almost 10 years and nowbody knows that. But, what do you want to do with this shitty parts? Even the allied soldiers knows, that swastika on that parts is revers.
Emil: Helmut, it is not a problem! I´m 100% sure that afther several beers, nobody from allied soldiers can see the difference between our reverse rotaded swastika and authentic piece. I´m also sure that allied soldiers can´t see the difference between Sheman tank and Panther tank, when they get drunk, so we are safe with our shitty swords.
Helmut: Emil you are right about that. It is true story! I read that young officer named Ernst Barkman pass village full of allied shermans, soldiers and so on, and nobody from allied soldiers can see the difference between Sherman and Panther tank!
Emil: So Helmut, quickly finish all the swords with reverse swastika and this evening we go to the nearest pub full of allied soldiers and whe sold all the shitty swords to them!
Emil and Helmut sold all the swords to the allied soldiers, nobody can see the difference between the real piece and shitty Helmut finished swastika... Emil and Helmut became very rich, and both die in late 2000´s and until the end of their life they can´t stop laughing, how they fool drunked allied soldiers
The end!
Last edited by PeterCollector; 10-13-2017 at 07:54 AM.
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My only Dog in this is the one that stakeside posted . So It's kind of an invitation to this party. I've had this discussion with Peter about a sub par lufty and even though his thought were late war and my thoughts were post war. I left it at that. That's what we do here as gentlemen having a discussion. But to see the low quality of this swords pigeon on a known maker of quality edge weapons and to blame it on "Late War" I'm really not seeing late war, as mentioned above these ended in 43. I can see the material being used, etc. Brass vs plated aluminum, Nickel fitting to plated but to say that the skilled workers are called to war and the apprentice is left to do the work. I still find difficult to accept as the skilled worker would of been the "Old Man" not the youth who were pulled into service along with the old man . But those times were not there yet. It wasn't until late 44 to 45 that they scraped the barrel for any and all that could carry a rifle. The MFG's still wanted a quality product to sell to a senior enlisted/ officer . The person buying this with the limited funds would still want to represent the position he held and not wear a sub par non regulation item. Hitler has several assassination attempts at this time and I HIGHLY doubt anybody wanted to show their free spirited uniqueness then.
Just my 2 centavos on this subject
Semper Fi
Phil
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Hi, so I hope you all like my story about "How it can be, if this sword is made from left over parts".
I´m sure that it can´t happen in that way. And I´m still sure that this is authentic sword. Why - I just don´t know - because it reflects all the III. Reich construciton? And we never saw reproduction in so high quality! Everybody, who think that it is post war piece, just tell me, how can it be finished like genuine III. Reich piece? Each detail is correct, grip, scabbard, blade, marker mark! Just reverse swastika, yes OK, I can´t explain why it is reverse and who can wear it, but tell me who can faked the sword for a very long time and just forget to put swastika in right way? Yes, nobody don´t know. So all coments are equal! But I think, I have stronger arguments, because this sword reflect all III. Reich construction, never been faked after war, has a good quiality. And even several other examples exist, with same construciton reflect period hand work and finishing...
Peter
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I am laughing so hard, beer came out of my nose.....Doug
In Genesis it is said that GOD made man in his own image. When Doug looked in the mirror, did GOD make a mistake or a joke ? ? ?
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