Article about: Hello everyone, I have a chance to get Fire police Dagger, not maker marked that is etched.. Is dedicated 1936, as is kinda hard to come across.. Is this a good dagger?? It will be my first.
Gerrit, Im here to learn, and I have big shoulders so what ever the critics have to say is fine with me, I have a contradicting email from one big names in the dagger world, to Mr. Andersons response,
So there is room for everyone to learn..
Hope you are feeling better and mend up. Having written many books Tom is knowledgeable. Yet he had never seen this piece in all his years. Does not make him right or wrong. Gerrit is knowledgeable. JR is knowledgeable. Andy, Me, Larry and Anderson is as well as Gerrit have very good knowledge in the etched blade arena. The one thing all of the esteemed men above have in common is they have opinions and likely have all been wrong in their lifetime as all good collectors are. Likely there is 200+ years of blade experience in the men above which speaks to study and wisdom. None of us have seen this weimar etched piece other than the one JR has on his site. That may be a good sign for Tom but red flags for others.
None of us is infallible and all knowing in this hobby. If you like it and can live with the uncertainty then rock it and enjoy it. My opinion is much to support Gerrit's and Anderson's. Would love to have it in hand but based on pictures and etch pattern it would not be one I would have in my collection. Again! Only a collector's opinion from 35+ years of collecting.
Bottom line the guys here know their stuff as well and want to help and give you the opinions you seek. It is a good thing. If this is your first edged piece it is good you have seeked opinions. Don't just settle for one with the big name and keep doing your due diligence until you get a consensus you can sleep and live with. Don't rush to a purchase. I have done it and the feeling is no good.
Depending on your budget and where you are I would sell you a nice long model fireman's here on my website that has everything but an etch. I would be happy to outfit you with a complete piece and get you into your first edge piece for your collection. Frog, troddel and nice maker: Fireman’s Long Bayonet
Kind Regards, Rossi
"It's not whether you get knocked down...It's whether you get up"
Old habits yes, but not without some basis. I have a 1905 Eickhorn sales catalogue and in the Feuerwehr section there are four earlier designs some similar to the M1871 bayonet and yes, in the catalogue they are actually described as "seitengewehr" (bayonets) even though not able to attach to a rifle. No mention of "Fascine" or "fahrtenmesser" (work knife) at all.
But this is all a little irrelevant as the issue of the etching is the main point on this thread.
Seitengewehr is a german generic name for Sidearm in all, so the using term of Seitengewehr mainly on early period prior 1920 would be probably normal and is not automatically same or identical to english term bayonet. About this to understand You should be a native german or long time german language skills and read old literature. Faschinenmesser is more specific term for denote sidearm for special purpose. This term was used mainly post 1900 for sidearms and Fireguards.
PionierFaschinenMesser is too a bayonet but for special duty. So there should be exact term used period for any branches.
Here is an older thread with a Tiger brand Feuerschutzpolize blade. One of my favorites. Here referred to as 'Faschinenmesser' (and no etching to ponder). Very interesting thread ongoing now.
Greetings Gentlemen,
An interesting study indeed on these bayonets to say the least. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And while some just guess on forums, and others use logic and experience, still others have the added benefit of having the actual item in hand. I'll be brief on my own hands-on experience as it regards to this particular edged weapon.
This first photo is the foremost information on etched bayonets written by Wayne Techet who many of you know personally from meeting at both the SOS and MAX shows.
The 2nd / 3rd photos from Wayne's reference page 103. You can see that this bayonet with an Anton Wingen trademark exhibits the same paneled background as the etch on the fire bayonet which started this topic and the additional example on our site. Wayne further explains that the characteristics point to the Klaas edged weapon firm as being the actual producer for the etch, prior to their 1938 catalog showing their later etch designs.
In regard to the etch on these bayonets, naturally I can respond to the one that I actually have examined firsthand, and have in front of me. Here is my evaluation:
1. The etch is void of any missing border details or unevenness within the rounded edges of the design. Additionally, it doesn't exhibit any broken lines, flaws, etc, common with postwar etched edged weapons.
2. The detail to the bookend floral designs and helmet are extraordinary, even though the recessed fuller runs right through the middle of both. This is a very important characteristic which collectors should take note of, and where most fake etches will fall down when you study period vs postwar examples.
3. And lastly, this was a non publication etch which was produced for a special event which took place apparently annually, a few years prior to WWII. Though I think established above that this was indeed a period panel design utilized, you would not expect to see the etch in some of the surviving edged weapon publication which collectors sometime reference. This is exactly the same scenario as other bayonets like the Ehre, Kraft, Freiheit NS student bayonet produced by Eickhorn and another firm which escapes my memory at the moment. A special smaller order like the firemans bayo and the National Socialists bayonet would not be included in period catalogs. And actually adds to the scarcity of these etches.
I own the bayonet that JR has on his site and I have showed it to a number of very experienced collectors/dealers and every one of them agreed it was period and this includes Wayne Techet, just because you have not seen this exact etch pattern before doesn't make it bad, if you don't like it that's fine with me but please at least give us some reasons.
by FJ5 chally
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and have called them bayonets. Old habits
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