The beautifully executed etch is very rare. Even if it didn't have the dedication within the panel.
The beautifully executed etch is very rare. Even if it didn't have the dedication within the panel.
I'll give some reasons;
1) The decorative "pot plant" book ends" etching design that appears on the Anton Wingen Jr bayonet on P103 (Techet book) is identifed as an exclusive Robert Klaas design by Techet.
2) The problem is the E & F Horster company has no known etching client relationship with the Robert Klaas company. Etchings on Horster blades were supplied by F W Holler company. Techet confirms this on Page 28. Who can find another example of a Klaas etching on a Horster blade?
3) The lettering font is completely unlike any other Klaas etching. Let's quote Techet, "As mentioned in other motif descriptions throughout this book, the style of lettering used in motif citations can help identify the company who actually produced the etching." This font used is not seen anywhere in Techet's book.
4) Circumstances of the appearance of two examples out of thin air with no provenance as to where they've been for the last 70+ years.
5) Even with limited production runs, fonts and styles would be used more than once. Still waiting to see another etching clearly related with known provenance.
6) A skilled etcher could create this design relatively easily so without the chain of historical knowledge, catalogue evidence and known early other example makes buying one of these two a stella leap of faith. A leap many collectors wouldn't be prepared to take. Good luck to those who do.
And that is the beauty of discussion and debate be it on forums or any other venues, viewpoints and opinions can be laid out logically. We hear this often when collectors state that an item would need a hands on inspection for them to make a final determination on one subject or another. Since I have this edged weapon in hand, in my opinion there isn't any doubt that it was a rare etch done during the period indicated on the blade. Those thoughts were shared by Wayne Techet at a past SOS show, when he too had this very same bayonet in his hands............... and agreed to the same.
Cheers,
JR
Anderson
thank you for your reply.
I tend to think that in 1931 there was little standardisation between company's, who is to say that Horster didn't use this etch pattern during the Weimar period and later on it was used by Klaas I doubt there is anybody who can answer that question with any sort of surety, perhaps when etched bayonets became more popular there was some conformity between makers as Wayne states. You then mention two examples out of "thin air", that seems to me how all newly discovered items are found, I'm not sure I understand any other way for supposed non textbook pieces are to be discovered, you want provenance, well good luck with that, there are many collectables without provenanace so yes maybe it is a leap of faith but that is how I like to collect, I will not rule out anything, if I feel comfortable with it then that's all that matters, I respect other peoples views if they are different to mine, I have still yet to hear any conclusive proof that it is a post war etch, we have a difference of opinion and that as I say is fine with me. As JR mentions above it was shown to a room full of very experienced collectors who held it in hand and there was not one negative comment.
Gary
We agree to disagree.
A good question, I have never understood the logic that is supposedly behind the reason for them being known by dealers/collectors as "fireman's bayonets". Some German states issued sawtooth bayonets that were called Pionierfaschinenmesser that were made to be also attachable to rifles. And/or used as tools to cut wood and brush. But before then Pioneers were issued short swords with recurved crossguards and very usable sawteeth on a blade that was useful for cutting wood/brush (and/or for combat). Like this example that is over two feet long with a wide and fairly heavy functional blade. Best Regards, Fredby ruddersrangers44
Dealers dont known exactly the correct term, bayonets even by nearly identical the handle of KS98 and Fireworker sidearm could be easy missinterpret, as these bunch of Extra bayonets are not prepared to attach on rifle and are only uniform dress sidearms. FP presented a russian M1827 pioneer sabre/ Fashinenmesser.
Andy, Likewise I think that some misinterpreting may be a factor here. For the 1827 pattern Pioneer short sword in Russian literature I've seen the use of the word "тесак" that I believe translates to "backsword". In English for some short swords I've seen Hanger used, Cutlass, Falchion, etc. In a period Eickhorn catalog the so-called "Fireman's bayonet" is listed as a: "Feuerwehr-Seitiengewehre (Faschinenmesser)", for Klass it's "Feuerwehr-Faschinenmesser"), and for WKC it's only "Faschinenmesser". (I don't have a precision weight measuring device in that range, but with an ordinary household weight scale when you step on and off the scale with the "тесак" it is in the area of four pounds which is also why I consider it to be a sword.) Best Regards, Fred
Tesak Saperskij Soldatskij Obrazca 1827 goda. Sappeur Dusack for Soldiers M1827, is more a tool or like You mentioned cutlass as a sword, sword should be longer doubble edged blade, this is a tool blade with one side edge for cutting and other side for sawing wood, by similar items are blades only to 50/60 cm lenght, so in reality this is hard to explain what it could be identical called by germans but i assume Faschinenmesser would be ok. Catalogs as period by Eickhorn ,WKC and others i believe are for dress uniform Sidearms oriented. But Seitengewehr U/M not attachable on firearm could be a sample of generic term used for various items for special branches designed short swords or cutlasses. Sidearm is probably similar term with no exact definition for what branch or special duty is the arm. Seitengewehr in german should be used as more generic term for Sidearm, but by germans it were used mainly for knife bayonets in one period post 1850, the Faschinenmesser is a Seitengewehr for special purpose or special branch with possibility to attach on rifle by PFM 1871 to sample, but not attachable on rifle by Feuerwehr Faschinenmesser.
Etched fire bayonets produced in the period are exceedingly rare to find and unfortunately there are many more postwar etched or rehilted examples on the market compared to legitimate examples. Each and every element should be scrutinized for mistakes or evidence of fakery.
I have researched and catalogued examples of etched fire bayonets for over twenty years and certain patterns of postwar examples emerge over time. Buying one of these is an exercise in faith because of the prevalence of fakes and ultimately the buyer has to be able to sleep at night with his purchase.
The only pattern I've seen in the period examples observed was a small run of early Packs. An example of this style appears several times in the early Tom Johnson "Collecting" series. I've seen four of them and the blade etch and individual elements are all identical. The few other period examples I've seen appeared to be one-offs purchased for special occasions including the one I own.
Regarding Gary's Hörster example posted by JR, I believe the maker mark was used in the late Weimar / early 3R period. Additionally, the hilt is a Hörster product. The slightly off center rivets on it match the rivets of a fire bayonet I owned with the same maker mark.
Anderson does raise the point about the Solingen Parent Company Chart in Wayne Techet's book (pages 28-29) which show connections between producers of blade etch templates and other companies which have used the same patterns and fonts. The flowerpot bookend motif appearing in the same book (page 103) is on a Wingen marked example showing a Klaas font so the connection between these two companies is right there.
Similarly the book mentioned that Hörster used etches produced by Höller multiple times (pages 135-139) The book does not show a known connection between either Wingen or Klaas and Hörster but I've learned never to say never. It's preferable to stick with what we do know rather than what we don't.
Over the years I have observed extremely questionable etched fire bayonets on most of the major dealer sites. This is not to say they are knowingly selling bad items (although this is obviously possible) but purchasing from a dealer is always an exercise in faith and you should know exactly what you're buying though self research.
The originally posted example has a similar blade etch to Gary's example but the hilt is clearly not a Hörster. This simply goes back to what I mentioned earlier about one needing to be comfortable with a purchase and the specific seller.
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