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A trio of Fire bayonets.

Article about: Hi, Just picked these up. While I know what they are I'm no expert as to know much about them. They are all different, two are totally unmarked. One is much shorter/finer than the other two,

  1. #1

    Default A trio of Fire bayonets.

    Hi,

    Just picked these up.
    While I know what they are I'm no expert as to know much about them.
    They are all different, two are totally unmarked.
    One is much shorter/finer than the other two, and one has a sawback.
    Anything you can tell me would be appreciated.

    Cheers,

    HG
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture A trio of Fire bayonets.   A trio of Fire bayonets.  

    A trio of Fire bayonets.   A trio of Fire bayonets.  

    A trio of Fire bayonets.   A trio of Fire bayonets.  

    A trio of Fire bayonets.  

  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement A trio of Fire bayonets.
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  3. #2
    ?

    Default

    Nice Feuerwehr Faschinenmesser or Fireguard sidearms, the first RBNr 0/xxxx/xxxx marked frog is wrong there should be on S84/98 bayonet.

  4. #3

    Default

    Nice group there, you have both the 20cm and 25cm blade Faschinenmesser for Feuerwehr. You now just need the sawback in 20cm, which was another option. Some debate on who used the short & long version. My WKC catalogue gives no clue, other than there was a sword for officers. So probably other ranks could choose.
    Unmarked examples are not uncommon. Is there a red or black dot at the end of the portepee knot?

  5. #4
    ?

    Default

    On other place here Sleepwalker added the origin manual for Feuerwehr, and there is written longer blade for lower rank, short blade for Oberbrandmeister and higher when i remember correctly.

  6. #5

    Default

    Thank you.
    Red dot.
    So, it terms of numbers, how common are the short and the sawback compared to the regular?
    Noted on the frog, thought it was different.
    Any advice on gently cleaning the Portepee, one is pretty filthy.

  7. #6

    Default

    Cleaning the portepee, you need to be very carefull. I would avoid liquids, there is a dry product that works on sillver bullion thread, but I just forget what it was. You could do a bit of research. I've seen more long blade sawbacks than short blade sawbacks. I would tend to think the short version is less common. As to whether if was for a senior "NCO", we'll see what SW says but the same idea was common with collectors of Heer KS98, and now with more period documents available, this is now not generally regarded as correct. Actually not correct to regard these as "side arms", these are tools.

  8. #7

    Default

    Regarding the applicability of long vs. short blades by rank, I believe there is a reference to this in one of the later Tom Johnson books in his original series, from memory I believe it was volume 8.

    In that article, Johnson cites a period advertisement from distributor Hermann Schellhorn, Offenbach that distinguished the 25cm blade and silver/carmine knot for lower ranks where the 20cm blade and silver bullion knot with carmine dot was for superior ranked personnel.

  9. #8
    ?

    Default

    I dont known where got the info Johnson, but there is origin manual presented by Sleepwalker on german forum. I hope i dont broke any rules when i add here what is there written:
    "Das Faschinenmesser.
    ....
    Fuer Hoehere Dienstgrade vom Oberbrandmeister aufwaerts, kann ein kurzes Faschinenmesser getragen werden.Seine Laenge sollte nicht 35cm unterschreiten
    "
    For higher ranks from Oberbrandmeister upwards, could be woried a short Sidearm, its lenght should be not under 35 cm full lenght.
    By 15 cm handle lenght it means blade lenght 20cm.

  10. #9

    Default

    Excellent.
    In regards to the correct frog, is it just a dress frog or is it specific to fire ?
    I have a police bayonet too needing a frog, are they the same?
    If originals are hard to come by I may have to look at a reproduction.
    I've actually struggled to find a decent website that explains the various German frogs.
    HG

  11. #10

    Default

    The Feuerwehr frog is different to the "dress" frog used with a KS98 bayonet for the Wehrmacht. The main difference in the examples I've seen and have is that the leather is of a heavier grade. The KS98 dress frog is made from thin patent leather which by now will have typically "melted" and with cracked finish. When you think about it this makes sense in that the Fireman may actually be called to a fire while wearing the faschinenmesser, and actually use it during service. So it needed a frog that could survive "active wear".

    Below is a photo from my collection and contrasts the two types of frog.

    A trio of Fire bayonets.A trio of Fire bayonets.

    The Polizei frog for the seitengewehr is different again.

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