Austrian M75

**James C** · 06-02-2018, 07:16 PM

Next up my Light grey example ,is it likely this could be an m58 shell ,seems very low dome compared to my other m75 also I notice differences between the chinstrap stitching a square section stitching can be noted and also a different webbing material has been used ,also the ocl stamping is reversed between the examples shown ,again minor differences but duly noted on my behalf ..on a side note and please forgive my naivety but are most of the m75 shells simply re issued m58's ,you can tell this is not my area of collecting at all so still a huge learning curve also I can't make up my mind on the date stamp is it 57 /87 I am really not sure so tried to wet it down in the hope of some concrete results but to no avail ,also I can see sch scratched into the rear of the shell for reasons unknown ,I have heard a rumour Turkey used the stahlhelm 1 m75 but yet to confirm this so look forward to hearing your thoughts Gents

**James C** · 06-02-2018, 07:43 PM

last but not least my first ever Bundesheer purchase to my collection from many moons ago in fact 2012 ,this m75 came as was with this Rapid deployment helmet cover ,I notice the bails sit lower down on the shell rim ,is this due to the helmet size or are there other reasons to which I am unsure ,the shell has a flat smooth paint finish

**austromunga** · 06-05-2018, 11:04 AM

Hi James
Nice to see your M58/75 Stahlhelm out for an airing!!!!!
I think the whole Stahlhelm 2 for the M58 question is still a mystery...I have a recollection of reading a post from an ex Austrian serviceman, that stated...

"These were always known to the troops as Stahlhelm 1 no matter which type!!!!..... M58...M75 or even the U.S. WW II helmets!!"

And, as we now know.... all versions of each type, completely overlapped...... with older versions (some refurbished to the newer spec) being worn alongside the newer type.......indeed......Until very recently... the M1 was still being issued to new recruits for training!!!......right up until the composite M92 eventually superseded the Stahlhelm altogether!!

As for the U.S. issue sweatband....Question....did you replace a missing one with a U.S. issue one??? is it marked with U.S. stamping??? or did it come this way when you got it!!????
I ask because...I believe I have one or maybe two... M58 liner with the green webbing!! and this is as I received them.... even the webbing matrix itself is green!!!
and I would most certainly say this has not been tampered with/replaced in any way!!!!
i will post pics .....if i can find them!!! in the dreaded loft!!...

Also note the position of the chinstrap bails on your Usch 69 M58...as this seems to be the point at which the bails begin to "migrate" away from the stainless rim of the M58 helmets!!!
(the 1957-1959 M58 helmets have the bails very close...and in some cases overlapping the rim!!!!!! see pics of some of my examples.. left is Usch 58 dated and right is Usch 69 dated and finally the very last M58 produced Usch 1973 dated... these were also the first with the federclamen "liner clips")

by James C

Been looking over my 3x Bundesheer examples today dusting off etc and took some detailed pictures and thought I would add them here with a few questions along the way ,firstly my m58 ,Did we ever get to the bottom of why these are called the Stahlhelm 2 amongst collectors ?,the headband is not original but US in origin and would love to add an original grey type one day if one became available ,the liner also shows the yellow waxy disposal marking cross x Attachment 1208126 Attachment 1208125 Attachment 1208130 Attachment 1208128 Attachment 1208127 Attachment 1208129 Attachment 1208131 Attachment 1208132

**austromunga** · 06-05-2018, 11:22 AM

[QUOTE=James C;1860120]Next up my Light grey example ,is it likely this could be an m58 shell ,seems very low dome compared to my other m75 also I notice differences between the chinstrap stitching a square section stitching can be noted and also a different webbing material has been used ,also the ocl stamping is reversed between the examples shown ,again minor differences but duly noted on my behalf ..on a side note and please forgive my naivety but are most of the m75 shells simply re issued m58's ,you can tell this is not my area of collecting at all so still a huge learning curve also I can't make up my mind on the date stamp is it 57 /87 I am really not sure so tried to wet it down in the hope of some concrete results but to no avail ,also I can see sch scratched into the rear of the shell for reasons unknown ,I have heard a rumour Turkey used the stahlhelm 1 m75 but yet to confirm this so look forward to hearing your thoughts Gents

Your Example is most certainly an original M58...and looks very much to be a Usch 57 dated one too!!! the strange Grey over paint is an odd feature!!??...reminiscent of WW II U.S. Navy!!!???
The later M75 chinstraps have replaced the original T1 type..... the "box" stitching evident was often a sign this was done in the units Quartermaster's stores!!
A large number of M58 shells were converted to M75 spec this is where the confusion of these Austrian M1 clones come in!!!!...but there are also genuine M75 shells aplenty!!...
in general evidence of the dark grey paint beneath a green repaint...or a clear Date stamp..1957-1973 denote originally an M58 shell!!!

**austromunga** · 06-05-2018, 11:27 AM

[QUOTE=James C;1860126]last but not least my first ever Bundesheer purchase to my collection from many moons ago in fact 2012 ,this m75 came as was with this Rapid deployment helmet cover ,I notice the bails sit lower down on the shell rim ,is this due to the helmet size or are there other reasons to which I am unsure ,the shell has a flat smooth paint finish...

Your last example is 100% original M75 James!! one of the last produced being Usch 85 dated...the liner is a little earlier ....and also has the less common early absence of the cross-webbing band in the crown!!

**Greg Pickersgill** · 06-05-2018, 11:51 AM

Regarding the 'Stahlhelm 1' and 'Stahlhelm 2', business, the absolute answer is not as easy as ABC, but it is does seem that they are *not* "collector names" but are actually those used by the Bundesheer. Several years ago I got an email from Austrian collector Bernhard (who is active here) and he was quite certain that "The official designation for the helmets is "Stahlhelm 1 " for the 1975 model and "Stahlhelm 2" for the older model."

If we look at, for example, the small Bundesheer section of Baer's VOM STAHLHELM ZUM GEFECHTSHELM, if is apparent (even to someone like me whose grasp of technical German is very poor) that the 1 and 2 are the expected regulation titles. Of course this doesn't explain the simply baffling decision to make the older model number 2 and the newer one number 1.

May I say once again that this thread is one of the best ever - proper investigative and documented collecting! Excellent. I really wish I had something to add but my twenty or so M58s or 75s show nothing new, and presently I am not able to do any acquisition (= no spare money at all).

**Bernhard** · 06-06-2018, 04:43 PM

What a great thread this one has become.
A wealth of Information !!
Well done all of you that have contributed .!!!

I would like to present the one and only book that in great details describes the history
of the M57 Stahlhelm.
" Vom Stahlhelm zum Kampfhelm " the history of the austrian Stahlhelm written by the late Herr Baer and published
in 2006.
This book is no easy read even for the native german speaker....but all information there.
I will share some pages with you.
The drawings are from the manual that describes the "Rüstung 75" This is where for the first time the terminus Stahlhelm 1 is used to describe the "new" helmet.
Older helmets were therefore regarded as Stahlhelm 2 , maybe something like
2nd grade.
I hope this helps to sed some light onto the Stahlhelm 1 und 2 discussion.

Cheers

Bernhard

**Bernhard** · 06-06-2018, 05:05 PM

Here another Information I would like to share with you :
Production date in relation to HBA acceptence stamp.
Here we have two helmets produced in 1969 , one was accepted in 1969 the second on in 1970.
Note the additional numbers that in my opinion denotes the lot of the delivered helmets.

**Greg Pickersgill** · 06-06-2018, 05:20 PM

by Bernhard

Older helmets were therefore regarded as Stahlhelm 2 , maybe something like 2nd grade.

Bloody hell! First and second grade! If that is not strictly true then it should be, it makes sense. It is so obvious once someone points it out. Thanks Bernhard.

And thanks too for the notice of the book - I did not know of this one. I shall try to get one soon, although my first search shows it is quite expensive.

**James C** · 06-08-2018, 06:33 PM

Paul just to say many thanks for answering all my questions on the different model types I own and has been a great pleasure reading your comments

The US Headband was added just as a stop gap until I could source the correct period type but must admit don't hold out much hope another alternative would be to fine a complete spare m58 liner perhaps
Thanks for the confirmation on the grey m75 being a reissued m58 shell and never realised the colour was not that commonly found ,it has a glossy finished compared to my latter m75 which has a rough but non textured finish and I did wonder if a IR coating might of been used at all by this stage
Regards James