"Here Speaks the NSDAP" enamel sign

[KMMorris]

I totally disagree with the comment you cant fake plastic enamel over rust. The sign does not have real enamel on it, it has plastic enamel you can see by the way it has not have crazing and fractures. As for the shape the sign is not even on a squared of bit of metal and the issue that there is not a single bit or chip of enamel on the bottom is a dead give away. If you look at the back where it only wraps around 3 sides you can see it is clearly places over the rust. Signs are one of the easiest things to fake, hence why there are thousands that come out of Poland and litter gun shows, its economically viable because they are so cheap to make. On the subject of fake patina, is is clear there are several areas which have been damaged on purpose and affected with chemicals or fire.

[Finngaill]

I do not own any enamel sign (yet), but what I had study those from this forum and books, I agree what Morris and Ullergaard is saying here.

"Regarding fakery, how would it be economically viable to fake one third of a enamel sign that here in Europe would have little value?"

It is simple as that, it is cheap to made like hundreds of those, sell all and you will be rich guy.
Some years ago here was one scammer who scam only couple cents per persons in bank scam and after couple years he was a millionaire. So it is not always need to be big money what you are after from one person if you wanna be rich.

[mpw]

Ullergaard.

I also thought this thread was meant to be educational but I seem to have perhaps been mistaken. Like you I have an opinion based on a few not so clear photos and as such think this sign stands a chance of being a partial relic of an original sign. You disagree and that is fine by me. Three years studying archaeology at university taught me many things and one is it is good to have an opinion but be ready to change our mind if more facts or information contradict the issue. If better photos and information is supplied and it is clear to see this sign is a wrong then I will be happy to agree with you.

In the mean time I will leave you with this thought, NSDAP signage came under the umbrella of the Reichszeugmeisterei and I would have thought had to conform to a specific design and dimensions. If the OP were to measure the width of his sign and compare with a known original this may help in a positive or negative way.

Rgd's Mark.

[doug6zj9]

I have an interest in signs but will probably never have one. Any attempts to learn from the forums end the same way... disagreement and no real education...

[MAP]

I have an interest in signs but will probably never have one. Any attempts to learn from the forums end the same way... disagreement and no real education...

Personally, listening to opposing views is very educational.

And while neither side has been swayed to the other side, there has been good point/counter point discussions. Everyone has been respectful as well and all have pretty much noted that better photos are needed.

So not really sure what else we would ask for. I would rather have respectful disagreement than silence. We learn a lot more when we hear all sides, then critically analyize the presented facts to get to the most appropriate solution

[KMMorris]

I have an interest in signs but will probably never have one. Any attempts to learn from the forums end the same way... disagreement and no real education...

That statement is an absolute fallacy, if that is your opinion why do you even bother browsing forums.

[sweersz]

Wow, a lot to talk about... first, yes, the sign is the same width as others of its kind (around 25 inches).

I couldn't help but be tempted to flatten out the sign a little bit and barely flexed it and as a result, a sliver of enamel popped off and almost hit my eye!

I've had this happen to me before with other antique enamel signs. The metal flexes but the enamel does not, and pop!! You will hear a distinct "TTT!!!" sound when this happens. Porcelain enamel is as hard and jagged as glass and will cut you, so be careful in dealing with damaged enameled signs, especially when attempting to straighten/flatten them out.

Again, I've handled dozens of these signs dating from the 1910s - 1950s and I own quite a few -- my dad also has a nice collection and a lot of what I learned about enamel signs is through him and personal experience, not to mention the hundreds I've seen up close and personal at antique shops, museums, friends'/families' garages, etc. -- I know my enamel signs.

Regarding the damage, as stated, often but not always spidering will be evident after impact (usually boys with catapults) with stones etc although often on dark enamel this is harder to see. Most of the rust damage seen here is indicative of the sign having been cut and partially placed into the ground probably to stop vermin entering a shed or outbuilding. If you look at the bottom left and right sides of the sign it can be seen the flange has been bent for a purpose to assist in the task. Regarding the general condition of the enamel again I see nothing wrong. Fakers often try to replicate patina with chemical stains etc but this sign has the appearance of being exposed to the element for 80 years or so. Some collectors like to clean this verdigris and a nylon kitchen pad with cleaner which will bring the enamel up like new.

Indeed. Through many years of visiting scrap yards, I've seen enamel signs used in so many ways, like as floorboards in cars and also cut up and utilized as replacement panels for appliances like washing machines. Whatever application my sign had or whatever poor environment it lived in, it's ridiculous how some people think it's fake for such unfounded reasons and logic. I've already told you people that my sign exhibits the things you said it does not have and you can even see this in the previous photos, so the irony is it what I said landed on your deaf ears.

I will now enlighten you with some closeup pics in natural lighting:


Pronounced shelving:


Hairline cracks, layering, injuries, & wear in the porcelain enamel:







Now to address something...

6 Materials – One easy way to determine if a sign is authentic and old is to use a magnet on the metal. If it is original, the magnet will stick to the sign since it is steel. If the magnet does not stick, the sign is probably baked on aluminum. Signs from the 1950s and before never used aluminum in their composition, so this is an easy way to determine if a sign is old or not. Many eBay sellers call signs “porcelain” when they are simply newer baked on enamel over aluminum signs.

The original posted sign is not original!
Look in the section about how the difference between steel and aluminium works..

You should know better. To start, I don't even need a magnet to prove my sign is not aluminum -- just look at the rust -- aluminum doesn't oxidize like that (not even close), but iron does. Clearly the sign's metal is ferrous and yes, of course a magnet sticks to it. It's important to note that not all steels are magnetic though, by the way, like most all austenitic stainless steels. You're talking with a guy who has a degree in chemistry so I happen to know a thing or two about how steel and aluminum work. In fact, you may want to update your guide now.

This thread was meant to be educational for others who might wanna jump on a fake Polish sign.. But I speak for deaf ears it seems.

Enjoy the sign.

I am the one speaking to deaf ears, not you. Get off your high horse. Absent this post I'm making now and others, you're confusing a whole lot of people by being so adamant that this sign is fake when it is obviously genuine. That's the only reason why I'm continuing to argue -- for the sake of others.

If you still can't see that this sign is real, which you may have changed your mind in light up my new closeups, there is nothing more I can tell or show you -- you're wrong and I'm sorry to have hurt your ego of expertise on this subject, or lack thereof, if you're offended.

I've seen plenty fake Polish signs on eBay so it's always good to err on the side of caution (especially if you don't know what you're doing), but believe it or not, if your eyes are trained and experienced, you may find a genuine German one on there as I have.

[Danmark]

This is heading south I'm afraid.......

[CSW]

it is obviously genuine.

Obviously? If that was the case, there probably wouldn't be this many contradictory comments posted by well-respected members here...

Please keep it civilized guys - no need to boil your blood over a rusty sign. Cheers!

[KMMorris]

You should know better. To start, I don't even need a magnet to prove my sign is not aluminum -- just look at the rust -- aluminum doesn't oxidize like that (not even close), but iron does. Clearly the sign's metal is ferrous and yes, of course a magnet sticks to it. It's important to note that not all steels are magnetic though, by the way, like most all austenitic stainless steels. You're talking with a guy who has a degree in chemistry so I happen to know a thing or two about how steel and aluminum work. In fact, you may want to update your guide now.



I am the one speaking to deaf ears, not you. Get off your high horse. Absent this post I'm making now and others, you're confusing a whole lot of people by being so adamant that this sign is fake when it is obviously genuine. That's the only reason why I'm continuing to argue -- for the sake of others.

If you still can't see that this sign is real, which you may have changed your mind in light up my new closeups, there is nothing more I can tell or show you -- you're wrong and I'm sorry to have hurt your ego of expertise on this subject, or lack thereof, if you're offended.

Your tone is absolutely disgusting mate, I hope you learn some manners before posting in future.
Can see why people disregard generation z.