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DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE Flag

Article about: Hi, we originally joined this forum for advice on this flag we have. We put a message up on the new members part of this site and someone kindly asked if we could post pictures up on here an

  1. #1

    Default DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE Flag

    DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE FlagDEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE FlagDEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE FlagDEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE FlagDEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE FlagDEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE FlagDEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE Flag

    Hi, we originally joined this forum for advice on this flag we have. We put a message up on the new members part of this site and someone kindly asked if we could post pictures up on here and sent us the link. Since we first posted, we have been told it's original and if put in an auction they would start in the thousands rather than the hundreds, which has left us stunned. There was a stein with it which has hand written on it that the stein was from ' Hitlers Keller Conference - Hofbrauhaus Munchen ' . Do you think these would be connected or are the dates incorrect? Any help, information or advice would be grateful. Kind regards.

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  3. #2

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    Welcome to the forum..

    A remarkable standard and one that will raise eyebrows..

    This is a definite item that will need rock solid provenance as to where it came from and other details... and closer inspection of the embroidery around the roundel, swastika and other areas.

    If you can get some very clear and very close photos of the letter stitching and the other areas that I mentioned for us please..

    I also would like some close up images of the red patch at the top of the standard. This should be leather but I can't really tell from these images.

    If you can find a copy of this book: "Deutschland Erwache, The History and Development of the Nazi Party and the "Germany Awake" Standards" by Ulric of England, I would pick it up and read about this standard..

    I will tell you that not too many of these survived the war and there is an interesting chapter in the book mentioned above that discusses the standards and parts of the standards known to have survived the war..

    If Ben Weed were still alive (Rest in Peace Ben) he would be able to provide some more expertise and knowledge about this type of standard as he had one (maybe more) in his collection.

    This is a very exciting find and I look forward to seeing more images.

    Best regards

    Smitty

    Here is an image of the book..
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE Flag  

  4. #3

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    Good evening Smitty, thank you for taking the time to reply. When I get some time over the weekend I will get some close up photos of what you requested ( it's now locked away at present)
    Thanks again.

  5. #4
    MAP
    MAP is online now
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    Thanks Peter for posting the extra photos. In your introduction post you noted you had it appraised by an auction house that has a militaria expert. As Smitty states, these are more than extremely rare and and as such need to be approached with extreme caution.

    I'm a bit concerned about the feed back on value that you received from the auction house. It gives me great pause as to know if they really have the expertise. £1,000 is not even remotely close as to what the true value of an original piece would bring as they are historical significant.

    I am in no way qualified to authenticate such an item but maybe some member here will be able too or know someone who can.
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  6. #5
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    If real, you hit the jackpot. I have never seen one with my own eyes. I will follow this thread.

  7. #6

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    Hi Map, again thank you for your reply. I'm sorry if my original message was confusing but the auction house said it would actually 'start' the auction in the thousands rather than start the auction in the hundreds as it was such a valuable piece, indicating that it would fetch a considerable amount and they didn't mean it would be worth a thousand.
    Hope this makes sense.
    Kind regards once again.

  8. #7

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    Hello and good evening. We have attached some close up photos ( 8 in all ) as requested by Smitty in an earlier message on this thread. We hope these can be seen clearly enough. Incidentally the red patch certainly feels as though it is leather but as you have all probably guessed by now, I am not an expert.

    DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE FlagDEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE Flag
    DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE FlagDEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE Flag
    DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE FlagDEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE Flag
    DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE FlagDEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE Flag

  9. #8

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    Hello Peter,

    Thank you for the additional photos.. These are very helpful.

    Based on the additional photos that you provided, I believe that the tab is in fact leather. This leather patch should measure 8cm by 3.5 cm in length. This should be machine sewn to the standard.. It looks to have been hand sewn to the standard... (One concern of mine)

    When you have some time the next task would be to get some measurements..

    Here is some basic information about the DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE standards: I will abbreviate the title from now on with simply "DE"

    Both the SA and SS versions of the DE Standards (Standartentuch) in regards to details of the cloth, dimensions and materials were exactly the same.

    The DE Standard Cloth was made of fine red silk with a water resistant finish on a double side rectangle which measure approximately 68cm wide by 59 cm deep from side to side, top to bottom without measuring the fringe on the edges. The silk should have an inner white cloth backing which would be required when hand or machine embroidering through silk...The color of the silk may have also changed due to the years of use during the TR period as well as how these may have been stored after the war and in various climates and other environments.

    In the center of the red silk cloth obverse is a white disc with a silver braid border. On the disc is a black swastika edged with silver braid or Tresse. The black outer border of the swastika should be fine black Russian braid. The block letters "DE" are hand embroidered and the material should be white wool with black wool borders. The lettering embroidery is sometimes referred to as "fish scale" embroidery. Something to also look at closer is the possible remnants of a "guideline".. Before any lettering was handworked to the silk, guidelines were penciled in to assist in the hand embroidery. This is similar to a stencil pattern and if visible they may be observed in white or black markings around the lettering.

    On the back of the standard the wording NAT. SOZ. DEUTSCHE ARBIETERPARTEI at the top and the bottom STURMABTEILUNG. This appeared on both the SA and SS Standards. Again the lettering is hand embroidered with fine white wool with a black wool border.

    The outer border of the DE Standard is fringed on three sides with hand rolled wool grouped into equal segments of black, white and red. The fringe should be approximately 4.5 cm long. The fringe should be machine sewn along the inner edge using cotton to keep the fringe as one joined strip sewn to the edge of the front and back silk panels. The tri color fringe on the DE Standards shows the greatest amount of variation from Standard to Standard. Although the quality of the wool fringe and the length remains the same, apparently it did not matter what color segments started on the cloth. You may see some Standards that start with red and finish with black while others start with black and finish with red.

    The condition is fair and it will need to be preserved/conserved which will also be several thousand dollars to properly restore this and then to properly store this once restored and preserved.. As a museum curator I have seen rare artifacts such as these be neglected sadly due to lack of funding or lack of interest to spend funding to preserve this type of artifact..

    Lastly, I will ask about provenance and where this example came from and how you came into possession of it. Most collectors will agree that solid provenance to an item will almost always confirm authenticity, but with this said a number of "check marks" would make a believer out of a collector. A period photo with the items and the individual (s) around said item, a document or letter (not a certificate of authenticity) but perhaps some type of letter home to a family member from a Soldier saying they are sending home a helmet, dagger, flag etc. Of course one of the most significant bodies of proof is directly from the veteran themselves and even with this type of provenance keep in mind that these vets are now in their late 90s and their recollections may not be as fresh as they were in 1945 so their accounts of how they acquired said items may have some doubts..

    One last thing to keep in mind that if this is an original DE Standard and it was consecrated with the Blood Flag, Hitler himself would have touched this flag, so that right there would place this piece in a value well above the hundreds that were originally thought and well into the thousands that were later predicted.

    I remain optimistic that there is a 80% chance in my opinion that this DE Standard is authentic but again I go off direct and solid provenance before I am willing to spend several thousand dollars..

    Hope this information is helpful and we look forward to hearing more about the origins and provenance of this artifact.

    Best regards, stay safe

    Smitty

  10. #9

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    So,,,,to my untrained eyes, it's looking pretty good.
    If so, it really needs some good cleaning and conservation.
    Ralph.
    Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)

  11. #10
    MAP
    MAP is online now
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    To take one step back, and I invite opinions of others.

    While you have brought it to an auction house for an appraisal. Is it your intent to sell it.

    If so, for an item like this, I would highly recommend you do some more homework to determine the 'best' auction house and not only rely on the one you have spoken too. I would say you should focus on auction houses that focus primarily on militaria. They will have the best resources available to evaluate the item and attract a much larger number of dedicated collectors who have the means to bid on this item.

    This is your item, so shop it around and get feedback from different places.
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

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