Novice Buckle Collector still trying to learn!

**Hansi** · 08-12-2010, 02:36 AM

Hi Guys... although I'm trying to read and store as much information concerning fake & original WW11 belt buckles as I can, I don't seem to be making much progress. I've spent quite a bit of time studying photos and reading a lot of the posts on this forum and, a couple of descriptions that seem to pop up quite a lot when discussing fakes are "pigeon heads and diamond shaped feathers".
As I scroll through lists of buckles for sale on various reputable sites (for example Espenlaub), I sometimes see buckles that in my inexperienced opinion seem to fit the fake description... like this one. Is this what you would call a pigeon head... and what do you think of these feathers? I would really appreciate it if someone could show me a clear photo of the type of heads and feathers to be avoided?
And just one other question... when a buckle has no maker stamp, is this because as the war went on and manpower and materials became scarce, the quality of the buckles went downhill and therefore makers' stamps were not included? And if this is the case, does that mean that buckles with no markings can be dated to a later date during the war years?
Many thanks for your patience and understanding... I really appreciate your help.
Cheers... Hansi

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 08-12-2010 02:36 AM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**lach470** · 08-12-2010, 02:41 PM

The lack of markings does not necessarily reflect the time/date of manufacture I think.
The buckle shown is a good one. It's not a pigeon head fake. have a look in the rouges gallery for some pigeon examples and you'll soon see the difference. If I was to gander a guess....I would say the eagle shown belongs to an Overhoff buckle. Ben would know for sure....I'm still learning to associate eagles to manufacturers.
Cheers!

Rob

**Hansi** · 08-12-2010, 03:07 PM

Thanks a lot Rob... I'll have to dig a bit deeper (pester some more experts that means!) and find out what the lack of markings actually means... I guess that there has to be a valid reason. Yes, I did look at the so-called pigeon heads in the rouges' gallery, and I really felt that the picture of the buckle that I posted in didn't quite have that regal look that a lot of the eagles have... and those feathers still look diamond shaped but maybe I was being a little too critical. I've been collecting ships in bottles for a long time and I can spot a fake a mile away and within seconds (a lot of them are listed as being very old, etc.) but these buckles... well, I'm still struggling to spot the differences as there seems to be so many variations, within the genuine ones that is, and with so many fakes about it's a bit of a nightmare for me at the moment, trying to decide which ones to add to my humble collection...
But I'll keep at it... it's great to have this forum and all the helpful collectors to fall back on... I'm sure that I'll build up my knowledge over time.
In the mean time thanks a lot for your support, I really appreciate your help.
Cheers... Hansi

**Ben Evans** · 08-17-2010, 09:12 AM

Hansi, have a good read of this thread if you have not already done so, it may help a little

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/belt-...ls-fakes-5102/

**Ben Evans** · 08-17-2010, 09:16 AM

Hansi, reference makers marks you will find early buckles that are not marked and there are some makers who marked as late as 44, eagles heads feathers etc did vary between makers. IMO a good mix of knowledge about catches, prongs, box type eagles heads feathers markings are all good tools for identifying fakes, do not try and rely on just one thing. Ads you go along you will learn how to identify good from bad, keep reading, learning and it will come

**Hansi** · 08-17-2010, 10:24 AM

Thanks a lot Ben for your advice and the interesting link. I think that I can now spot the really obvious fakes but some of the better ones are very difficult, but I will keep trying to learn and hopefully, one day, I will be able to trust my own judgement... although having just said that it never hurts to get the final approval from you more experienced guys! I asked the question in an earlier post as to why forgers are not more careful, why they don't copy an original exactly... can you imagine someone faking the Mona Lisa and putting the wrong signature on it, or giving her a different hairstyle...? It would be crazy, that's why I wondered if these obvious and badly produced fakes have been circulated on purpose, to make the better fakes seem good. Whatever their reasons, at least we can be thankful that the mistakes can still be spotted... dread the day when they improve their handiwork! Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate that... Cheers... Hansi

**Adrian Stevenson** · 08-17-2010, 10:43 AM

The subject of fakes and errors they contain is one which is often discussed. I have now given up trying to second guess crooks intentions, but errors thankfully do occur. Sometimes we think these errors are put there on purpose: so the fakers friends do not get caught out with bad items!

Cheers, Ade.

**Hansi** · 08-17-2010, 11:04 AM

Thanks Ade... wouldn't you just want to be a 'fly on the wall' the day one of the fakers gets caught out buying another faker's work!! Even though, having just said that, I can well imagine that these guys are probably not at all interested in collecting them themselves, or that they find any sort of beauty or historical attraction in the originals... if they did, I'm sure that they wouldn't become forgers... Cheers.. Hansi

**Adrian Stevenson** · 08-17-2010, 11:13 AM

I do know of crooked individuals doing deals with each other and trading fakes between themselves. Poetic justise or what! But you are right most don't collect, their only interest is money.

Cheers, Ade.