British Mark IV Mk4 "Turtle" helmet

[Greg Pickersgill]

As for the MkIV verus MkV thing I believe this is due to assumption (you know; assume makes an ass out of "U" and me). The shell was always nominated MkIV right to the end in the stores catalogue and in unit equipment tables, everywhere! The "sock" liner was nominated MkV so for me that is the answer.

Good. I have always felt that it was clear, after seeing the instruction leaflet for the MkVI referring to it replacing the MkIV, that the right name for the steel helmet was the MkIV. I wasn't too clear about the designation of the sock liner, so that's certainly helpful.

But there's still the apparently unexplained jump from MkIV to MkVI. Was there ever a MkV in any real sense, other than something relating to the liner? Specialist MkVI collector Richard Aixill has said (paraphrasing or quoting from official documents)-

"The new composite material helmet was intended to replace the MK IV steel helmet. Research for this new helmet is suggested to have stemmed from developments to equipment used by the army in Northern Ireland. However, it is also possible that a trial (un-adopted) version of the composite helmet was titled MK V."

So was a version of the Thetford/Bristol Northern Ireland helmet ever thought of as the MkV? Or what?

[Composite]

of course not....we KNOW that the para lid was a Mark 76 :-)

[Watchdog]

Good. I have always felt that it was clear, after seeing the instruction leaflet for the MkVI referring to it replacing the MkIV, that the right name for the steel helmet was the MkIV. I wasn't too clear about the designation of the sock liner, so that's certainly helpful.

But there's still the apparently unexplained jump from MkIV to MkVI. Was there ever a MkV in any real sense, other than something relating to the liner? Specialist MkVI collector Richard Aixill has said (paraphrasing or quoting from official documents)-

"The new composite material helmet was intended to replace the MK IV steel helmet. Research for this new helmet is suggested to have stemmed from developments to equipment used by the army in Northern Ireland. However, it is also possible that a trial (un-adopted) version of the composite helmet was titled MK V."

So was a version of the Thetford/Bristol Northern Ireland helmet ever thought of as the MkV? Or what?

I don't believe there ever was an actual helmet nominated MkV at least not one that anybody outside the drawing office ever saw and I think that the liner being nominated MkV was probably with the intention of turning the MkIV into the MkV by way of modification. Probably not enough change to satisfy the criteria for a new "Mark" so perhaps MkIV* which never made it into the official nomenclature.
As with the phenomenon of "common usage" in the the very language itself where incorrect words, corruptions of words and phrases become accepted as valid through persistent mispronounciations, misappropriations and downright malapropisms I think the reference to a MkV helmet came about by the assumptions of those who didn't actually know. I suppose the assumption is quite natural really, if there was a MkIV and now there is a Mk6 (does anyone ever question the different style of tabulation?) there just has to be a MkV (nobody seems to wonder if there was a Mk5) right? I can say that in every document I ever saw concerning the scales of issue or supply or unit equipment tables (which are produced at MOD level and given to units) referred to "Body, helmet, steel MkIV" for the shell or "Helmet steel MkIV complete" for the whole thing. If anything mentions a MkV steel helmet I would be 99% certain it was typed by a storeman without reference to official nomenclature and therefore not to be considered authoritative. Mind you, the water is so muddy now that we might never be certain!!
So, how do we as collectors refer to the different types of MkIV? Dare I suggest MkIV modified or "lMkIV/late liner"?

Isn't this fun?

Mark

[Greg Pickersgill]

So, how do we as collectors refer to the different types of MkIV? Dare I suggest MkIV modified or "lMkIV/late liner"?

Isn't this fun?

Mark

Yes! Oh yes. This is the fun bit of collecting, no question. I am more than happy to accept your informed reasoning that there was not and is not, now or ever, a MkV. Good. Problem solved. Case closed. Until someone comes up with some incontrovertible evidence otherwise - there is that Cotton fellow, and his legendary book....one never knows, do one.

I'll go with MkIV mod(ified) but its going to be a long dark night before we get that generally understood and accepted in a world where 'M76' for Para Light Weight rears itself from the swamp on a regular basis. We haven't quite managed the transition from 'Zuckerman' to Civilian Protective Helmet yet.

Super!

[Watchdog]

Yes! Oh yes. This is the fun bit of collecting, no question. I am more than happy to accept your informed reasoning that there was not and is not, now or ever, a MkV. Good. Problem solved. Case closed. Until someone comes up with some incontrovertible evidence otherwise - there is that Cotton fellow, and his legendary book....one never knows, do one.

I'll go with MkIV mod(ified) but its going to be a long dark night before we get that generally understood and accepted in a world where 'M76' for Para Light Weight rears itself from the swamp on a regular basis. We haven't quite managed the transition from 'Zuckerman' to Civilian Protective Helmet yet.

Super!

Yep, I know what you mean. They just don't think about collectors when they produce the kit do they?

Just to complicate the issue further; I suppose that the operative word here is "Steel" and now that we no longer have steel helmets but rather combat helmets in which case the first would surely be a Mk1 it might just be that "Mk6" is no more than a "nod" to the earlier series of nomenclature? After all we have not followed the Mk7 with Mk8 have we?

Mark

[Composite]

...actually, I now refer to the Mk7 as the Virtus-1......

[Greg Pickersgill]

...actually, I now refer to the Mk7 as the Virtus-1......

There is, indeed, always one...

[Jerry B]

MKIV/V liner hybrid, it just rolls off the tongue....

[Jerry B]

just got this doing a search on helmet parachutists....M76 paratrooper helmet - Wikipedia

[Composite]

How about from now on we call them MkIVA and MkIVB....and if we use them enough they're BOUND to catch on....after all, all 5 of the interested parties in the world are on this very forum! :-)