Origianl HJ banner?

**AdamSmith** · 02-15-2021, 09:13 PM

Hi, I found this Hj flag at my local auction being sold tomorrow (starts at 300 euros). Im hoping to get some opinions of the authencity of the item and some tips on what to look for while trying to determine if its original (Im a new collector hoping to learn). Any help would be greatly appriciated, stay healthy.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 02-15-2021 09:13 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Rakkasan187** · 02-15-2021, 10:31 PM

Adam,

The pictures are not very clear but from what I am seeing the material appears to be some sort of synthetic material which is post 1945. Not a Third Reich era manufactured piece in my opinion...

The design of this fanfare trumpet banner is very good, but there are some red flags in addition to what I believe to be a shiny synthetic material. I am not a fan of the ink stamp on the banner and it has been censured out so I can't read all the information which I presume is some sort of manufactures mark.

Admittedly there were not very stringent regulations prior to RZM in regards to make and design of these banners, many being homemade and handmade. With that said the presence of the RZM tag would indicate that this particular banner would have been made after the RZM regulations went into effect and the maker would have had to have complied with the regulatory requirements on manufacturing or the RZM tag would not have been applied, indicating that it did not pass inspection. So that is another red flag for me, lastly I am not sure what the square box in the lower left of the banner is supposed to be. If this is a unit formation identifier, most of these would have been in the upper left of the banner, so if the fanfare trumpet were attached it would have been directly under the trumpet's bell.

Seeing these photos and not knowing about the material or other information I would not want this in my collection.

Just a suggestion before investing money in something that you have little knowledge of... Do your research and study the topic area in question.. There are plenty of reference books and materials available and your investment in those reference books will save you a lot of money and heartache...

You have reached out to us which is a great thing prior to purchasing which in my opinion has saved you some money. It may take many months of research and study in these particular areas and actually seeing original items and the materials they are made of but you will be better informed and will be able to identify reproductions and fakes when they come up for auction.

I want to quote something that a Forum member wrote in one of his many books. He is a well known and respected authority of Third Reich memorabilia.

"Original trumpet banners, drum covers and rostrum drapes were made variously from wool. linen, cotton, bullion thread and velvet, depending upon the item involved. Fairly common pieces such as Hitler Youth trumpet banners for example, came in machine stitched linen or cotton..." "... Most fakes simply do not have the professional finish of the real thing, or are let down by the fact that they are made from postwar shiny synthetic materials." "Above all, collectors should remember that natural oxidation causes both silver and gold bullion thread to tarnish through time and any such embroidery in mint condition may be viewed with at least some degree of suspicion".

This information that I quoted is in a book titled "A Collectors Guide to Third Reich Militaria, DETECTING THE FAKES by Robin Lumsden. In this particular book Robin mentions and has photos of both original and fake trumpet banners.

As I mentioned, Robin is a member here and has written several books.

I would also add that the silver colored fringe on the banner itself if not white wool fringe but silver bullion material should have some degree of tarnish, but in this case I see no tarnishing which in this case could possibly be wool material but again better pictures are needed.

Sorry to be long winded but as you said you are a new collector to WW2 and many members here would hate to see you waste money on something not period authentic and learn the lesson the hard way.

I commend you for reaching out and asking questions, we are here to help.

I would wait to see what others may have to add and you can make a determination based on what you read from other members..

Best regards, stay safe

Smitty

**AdamSmith** · 02-15-2021, 11:41 PM

Thank you for the reply, Smitty.
I acquired some extra information about the item. The seller claimed it to be old natural materials (cotton).

I also managed to get a non-sensored picture

I asked about the grey box on the left corner and waiting for a response on that.

**Rakkasan187** · 02-16-2021, 12:30 AM

Adam,

Thank you for the additional photo.

I'm still unsure about the fabric and construction of the banner. Hopefully you will get some more photos of the smaller square box..

Have never seen an ink stamp like this on a trumpet banner. With that said it would not surprise me that someone placed a stamp on the banner to "make it more authentic looking"

Looks to be a deceiving stamp but I am willing to concede if someone else has more evidence of authenticity.

I'm still not 100% comfortable with what I am seeing.

Best regards, stay safe

Smitty

**bsiwula1** · 02-16-2021, 02:43 AM

hello all! I agree with all of smitty s observations. for me the hj ink stamp w rzm tag is redundant and a kiss of death. in addition the loose twists and large diameter cloth like material used on the border edge (as smitty mentioned) is a sign of poor construction. if exposed to water say for instance rain it would immediately wick up water and fray unlike wire wrapped material that you usually find on period flags and banners. jmo. kindest regards.

brian