They were posted as an American product, for the American-German bund. (So NSDAP regulations (or German figures etc) wont have anything to do with them - if they are original)
Genuine? i have no idea, but the reason why it is for sale on The Flying Lion website, as an "American-Nazi" pocket knife, may well be due to the fact that it was already posted on a forum, and not questioned?
Exactly. In attempting to determine whether the knife is real or not (I have no idea if it is) it would not help to refer to German manufacturing standards, -regulations, -period catalogs or -whatever.by Metallwarenfabrik
For what it's worth, we definitely know that the single "Sig" rune (as used by the Deutsches Jungvolk) was also used as the symbol of the Deutsche Jugendschaft - i.e. the youth organization of the German-American Bund, so its presence would not be surprising on such an item.
By the way, two "Sig" rune-adorned pocket knives from the same manufacturer (but of a different model) are also pictured in "They too were Americans. The German-American Bund in Words, Photos and Artifacts" by Scott Freeland, where they are described as "American-made pocket knifes of probable Jugendschaft issue".
I find it quite encouraging the that this thread will not dry up... But will produce some answers to some hard questions . The members here including myself are looking forward to "Metal W Fabriks" most colorful insight into this questionable piece. Please by all means this particular knife topic is yours . But for the sake of the thread please keep the pen knife in the forefront of thought and not to derail into a total Bund history. A summarization would be sufficient.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!- Larry C
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
I must disappoint. I dont know anything about the BDR (Bund Deutscher-Rednecks)I find it quite encouraging the that this thread will not dry up... But will produce some answers to some hard questions . The members here including myself are looking forward to "Metal W Fabriks" most colorful insight into this questionable piece. Please by all means this particular knife topic is yours . But for the sake of the thread please keep the pen knife in the forefront of thought and not to derail into a total Bund history. A summarization would be sufficient.
I was simply bringing up the fact that this item was already shown on a collectors forum some years before, described the same as it is now for sale, for the American NS party.
It was the comment below as well that prompted this. Whether it is genuine, a post war embellished item, or a complete Mickey Mouse product i would have no idea.
another one...
Ask and ye shall receive!
Here's a thread we've been discussing over on "blade forums"
BladeForums.com
The knife:
So now how fake are they? It would be pretty hard to make a fake, then leave it on the edge of a lake long enough to look like that. Read what I wrote in that thread, and, the responses. The knife in my pic above (from that thread on bladeforums) is most likely a Utica Cutlery product... same co. that make the pearl handled one pictured in this thread.
These people on bladeforums are not militaria collectors as such, but rather knife collectors; many of them specialize in pocket knives and say that this (they call it a lightning bolt) is a shield they've seen on several knives from that time period. I pointed out the obvious association with American Bund. They cite coincidence. I'm now thinking perhaps that they may just be right.
Pocket knives of the sort pictured above (the lake find) with rough black scales were cheap knives... just the sort produced in mass for the BSA and anyone looking for an inexpensive pocket knife. They all had some sort of shield! I pointed out how easy it would have been for the Bund to special order several hundred of these with a sigrune for the shield. I still think that's true. As I point out on that thread; this is not a lightning bolt.
Anyway, you can't rule out coincidence: look at all the Indian turquoise and silver jewelry from the late 1890's through the 30's with swastikas on them; it is an ancient symbol, just like the rune. The American Indian never met Hitler.
Sometimes extrapolation can poke you in the eye.
Check out these house shoes... I'm ordering a pair today!
regards, m
edit: Oh, I nearly forgot. Not only do I think the knife in the OP's thread is an original Utica knife (regardless whether or not the scales are 'mother of peal', or 'mother of toilet seat' as they offered both!) but the sigrune shield is original as well. Was it specially made for the Bund? don't know. Could it have been a popular enough shield in it's day to warrant several variations? A big yes. These pocket knife companies would use the same shield on their expensive knives all the way down to the rough black handled "lake find" I've posted.
None the less, it is what it is. And now you have a new archeological find confirming the authenticity of such, regardless of "whom" they were made for, staring you in the face.
Last edited by rynegold; 05-12-2014 at 01:58 PM.
Hi Ryne thanks for the info. Many pocket knives have been produced during the period but none of which were sanctioned by the NSDAP. I have no doubts that pen knives in general were produced imported and exported. Pen knives that are party related ... I have to say no for now as no documentation exists regarding pen knives. The photo
you produced from the blade forum could very we be a period keepsake and the runes applied privately or by the producer which would be high risk on his part. The Runes is party related and a party related material is closely scrutinized to keep in conformity of Quality and Patents.
Ask and you shall receive and I thank you for more documentation for this thread. But another question is there any proof of these knives being party related?
The AAPK forum who also discusses Pocketknives and such have given me a lesson in import and exported knives . I have no doubts of pocketknives being produced during the period but have high doubts they are party related. By the way thanks again for the research it makes a big difference in keeping a thread alive and providing more insight to an artifact. Best Regards Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Larry; no proof at all but it's an American made pocket knife (nickel pivot instead of steel) the "party" would have no wherewithall to stop someone from making up a batch of these with a sig rune on them for whatever reason; the "sig rune" isn't copyrighted; they, knife makers could put whatever they wanted on them for a shield. From what I understand the American Bund pretty much did their own deal, and was tolerated here but by no means welcome. The organization's visit to Germany in 36 was no success either; suspicion on all sides, poor reception/treatment by the Nazi hierarchy and so on. I already have a member over on bladefourms looking for a sig rune knife he remembers he has in a box somewhere. And so it goes.The photo
you produced from the blade forum could very we be a period keepsake and the runes applied privately or by the producer which would be high risk on his part. The Runes is party related and a party related material is closely scrutinized to keep in conformity of Quality and Patents.
Ask and you shall receive and I thank you for more documentation for this thread. But another question is there any proof of these knives being party related?
Hi Ryne..For the readers....could you give better to the link in which the discussion you speak of from the "Blade forum"? The link shows a sign in page.
True the party would have no power here in the US to remove anything from American made knives...but within Germany the sig-rune is idealogically alot more... than a keepsake lighting bolt applied to a knife. I have no doubts that the knife you speak of...was made in the US during the time. Regards Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Apologies Larry, and anyone else that wanted to see that thread. It appears to be a site that only allows members to see the threads, let alone post anything! So I can see it as I'm logged in but no one else sees it unless they join. I do recommend the site however, it's free to join and, we frequently discuss military edged weapons and tools.
regards, m
And yet another two more... from my pocket knife collecting buddies.
Now here's a Utica, and a Seneca as well but, different than the other 3 (edit.. not 4!) now known to this thread. So that's 5 known. The Seneca is a real rune!
A link to the forum/thread:
All About Pocket Knives • View topic - Authentic Nazi knife signed by Adolf Hitler
edit:
And here's a pic of a page from "Parker & Voyles official price guide 1981" (for pocket knives)...page 36
So the "rune shield" was common enough to be awarded the designation S138, and apparently used by at least two major manufacturers.
Last edited by rynegold; 05-14-2014 at 12:15 PM.
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