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Appreciate help authenticating SMS Preussen battle flag

Article about: Hallo, Thanks for visiting my post. I’d appreciate any help in authenticating the flag I just bought. I’ve just started collecting and really wanted to have a Royal Eagle flag. While I c

  1. #1
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    Default Appreciate help authenticating SMS Preussen battle flag

    Hallo,

    Thanks for visiting my post. I’d appreciate any help in authenticating the flag I just bought. I’ve just started collecting and really wanted to have a Royal Eagle flag. While I can’t yet afford the Royal Standard ones, I managed to get this example.

    The seller stated this particular flag is the personal ensign of the SMS Preussen awarded by the Prussian States as a special commission in 1906. This flag likely would have been used as a top masthead flag in place of the naval ensign when the ship was fully dressed. A similar flag was awarded to the SMS Brandenburg (this would have been a red royal eagle on a white background).

    The issue is that in the literature the SMS Preussen flag is depicted with a swallow tail (see image) and my flag doesn’t have this, therefore raising the questions:

    1) Is the flag truly the flag flown by the SMS Preussen?
    2) Is the flag in fact an authentic flag, correct to the time period and not a fake?

    The flag measures 190cm x 250cm. There are no clear markings besides a faded number 8 and it has damages however I’m not sure this is caused by actual wear and tear considering their location?I have requested the provenance from the auction house and got recommended to post here from r/militariacollecting, and would really appreciated any insights you might have!

    *Edit: do apologise that the flag is on the floor, I know it’s a no no but unfortunately I didn’t have any other way to check it without potentially damaging it.



    [attach=config]1557777][attach=config]1557776
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Appreciate help authenticating SMS Preussen battle flag   Appreciate help authenticating SMS Preussen battle flag  


  2. #2

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    Seb,

    Welcome to the forum first off..

    Second,, I am very skeptical about the provenance of this flag, without the rock solid provenance which for me would have to include period photographs of said flag flying on the ship then it is just a story. It would be very hard to determine authenticity without more information. I would be very hesitant to spend any amount of money on an item that was supposed to have a direct connection to a particular ship without any more than what the seller states.. The old adage "Buy the item not to story" comes to mind here... and "Caveat Emptor" (Buyer Beware)...

    As for the flag itself, I am not well versed on Imperial Flags as much as I am on Third Reich period flags and banners so I will let the forum members who specialize in Imperial items chime in.

    I hope the outcome for you and your flag is a positive one and I hope that you get the provenance you are requesting.

    Best regards, stay safe

    Smitty

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    Welcome to the forum.
    I like the quality of the silk screening, but I would like to see what is going on with the beak, and right wing.
    Also, I would like to see what is on the breast? It should be a Gothic R.
    Can you take some closer photos of the areas I have marked?
    Ralph.

    Appreciate help authenticating SMS Preussen battle flag
    Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)

  4. #4
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    Hi Smitty,

    Thanks for the swift response!

    I absolutely agree with the sentiment. I have found on a few occasions that the listed object seemed too good to be true and when doing some due diligence it turned out it was. Unfortunately collecting militaria can be a bit of a minefield (pun intended)..


    I in fact have already purchased the flag. It was in in a recent HH auction and they seem to have a reasonable good reputation. I’ve followed their auctions for a while and they have sold a few royal Imperial flags in the past, so when this one came up I wasn’t immediately concerned. I have requested more information from them to show how they established their provenance, so when their response comes through, I’ll update the post

  5. #5
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    Hi Ralph,

    Thanks for the help, appreciate it!

    Please find the requested close-ups as requested. I have also contacted the auction house to provide their evidence on how they have established the provenance, and will update once they come back.

    In case there wouldn’t be any connection to the SMS Preussen, however if the flag is the real deal, would you believe this could potentially be an ordinary Prussian battle flag (1895 - 1918 version) as they dropped the swallow tail at some point?

    Thanks,

    Seb
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Appreciate help authenticating SMS Preussen battle flag   Appreciate help authenticating SMS Preussen battle flag  

    Appreciate help authenticating SMS Preussen battle flag  

  6. #6

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    I don't know flags but as Ralph has mentioned, the detail in the creen printing
    does look pretty good IMO.
    gregM
    Live to ride -- Ride to live

    I was addicted to the "Hokey-Pokey" but I've turned
    myself around.

  7. #7

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    It looks like a WW1 version of the eagle, but there is a screen printing fail in that area of the beak and right wing which would result in a reject in any production house. Quality of the image is good, but difficult to date as Imperial flags were still being made for veterans post WW1 and of course after WW2. Some examination of the fabric would be needed I would think to date it.

  8. #8
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    Hello Seb,

    First of all, I'm not a flag expert, so it's just my personal opinion, but I've done a little research for you.

    To your first question:
    I couldn't find a single picture of the SMS Prussia showing such a flag without a swallowtail. It was always one with a tail. I also took a closer look at the high-resolution images in the auction house's online catalog. The crack edges look quite even and rather indicate that a straight edge strengthening has been torn off. Hence, I would doubt that this flag used to have swallowtails. To me it looks like a "normal" Prussian war flag from the period between 1892 and 1918.

    To your second question:
    When I look at your photos and those of the auction house, I don't see anything that suggests a fake. Everything looks fine to me and I would rate it as a real contemporary flag.

    As far as the auction house HH is concerned, I can only agree with you, it has a good reputation and is a founding member of the "BHMA". I have already found beautiful pieces there myself. But as Smitty said, you should always look at the object, not the story.

    Best regards
    Wolf

  9. #9
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    It is interesting to see how most of the damage has occurred in the areas printed in yellow; Presumably the result of a chemical or organic element used in the dye (perhaps urea - generally cows urine - commonly used in dye production), which can often have a detrimental effect upon the integrity of the fabric after an extended period of time.
    The presence of an organic substance can often attract the attention of mites and moths (as can sweat and blood), sometimes leading to the near-surgical removal of a specific area, as here.

    I, too, have no problem with the authenticity of this flag, and wonder if the swallowtails (if the flag was originally produced in such form), have been cut or torn off in later years - perhaps for ease of framing, or to tidy up a wind-battered end.
    Last edited by Kohima; 01-11-2022 at 11:55 AM.

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