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Göring Sword and Knot ID, help needed

Article about: I'm working on colorizing this portrait of Hermann Göring from WWI. I need help identifying the color of his saber and knot. I've done a bit of research on my own, I believe that it is a Ba

  1. #1

    Default Göring Sword and Knot ID, help needed

    I'm working on colorizing this portrait of Hermann Göring from WWI. I need help identifying the color of his saber and knot. I've done a bit of research on my own, I believe that it is a Bavarian officers sword, but I'm finding examples of swords that match the one pictured in both gold and silver, and I have yet to find any information as to the method behind color determination. I also have very little knowledge on knots, other than they vary greatly by region I believe. Any help is greatly appreciated.

    For reference, if it helps, Göring wears the Pour Le Merite here, which he was awarded in summer 1918, placing this photo towards the end of the war in late 1918. By that time he was a commissioned 1st lieutenant and commander of, depending on when the picture was taken, either Jagdstaffel 27 or Jagdgeschwader I (the Flying Circus). I have, however, found no information on imperial pilot swords, and so I must assume the sword pictured is from his infantry days.

    Göring Sword and Knot ID, help needed

    Göring Sword and Knot ID, help needed

  2. #2

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    I can not help with the sword color but the knot appears to be correct
    for a Prussian Infantry sword.

    The strap would be black with 3 rows of gray stitching and a gray knot
    with a black insert (that can not be seen in the photo)
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Göring Sword and Knot ID, help needed  
    gregM
    Live to ride -- Ride to live

    I was addicted to the "Hokey-Pokey" but I've turned
    myself around.

  3. #3
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    I can't help with the sword, But that is a Great photo of HG.
    I hope you will share the colorized version here. There are several members who also colorize pic on this site.
    They have done some Fantastic work on some I have.

    Semper Fi
    Phil

  4. #4

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    I can't see why he would have a Prussian portepee, as Goering was Bavarian. I've also positively IDed (I think) the sword as Bavarian and not Prussian, by the shape of the handle and guard. Comically, Prussian swords appear to have used a "P" shaped guard, very similar to what's pictured with Goering, but with the base of the guard coming much sharper and flatter. Bavarian swords bulbed out a bit towards the bottom of the guard to form a "B". You can just barely see in the Goering pic that the portepee is wrapped around that curved base of the B, not the sharp and flat one of the P. I'll attatch some reference I've found researching this.

    From this thread Help Identify WW1 Sword / Authenticity
    You can get a good view (albeit upside down) of the Bavarian B on the left vs the Prussian P on the right. The Prussian handle also has that slight hump in the center and that little metal rivetty bit on the side, both lacking in the Bavarian piece and in the Goering pic. Even more puzzling then. All signs point to Bavaria, but the portupee clearly doesn't match the Bavarian example in the diagram you supplied
    Göring Sword and Knot ID, help needed

  5. #5

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    Will make sure to do so. If you want to check out my previous work, you can find me on instagram @baruopa.colorizations
    Semper Fi btw, my dad was an officer for twenty years

  6. #6

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    I guess I'm not sure. I read that he joined the Prussian infantry but according to Wikipedia,
    he joined the "Prince Wilhelm regiment which was a Baden unit"


    from Wikipedia

    "At sixteen he was sent to a military academy at Berlin Lichterfelde, from which he graduated with distinction.

    Göring joined the Prince Wilhelm Regiment (112th Infantry, Garrison: Mülhausen) of the Prussian Army in 1912."


    and also from Wikipedia

    "111th (3rd Baden) Infantry "Margrave Ludwig William" 22 October 1852 Rastatt XIV Army Corps
    112th (4th Baden) Infantry "Prince William" 22 October 1852 Mülhausen/Elsaß XIV Army Corps
    113th (5th Baden) Infantry 16 February 1861 Freiburg im Breisgau XIV Army Corps
    114th (6th Baden) Infantry "Emperor Frederick III"
    gregM
    Live to ride -- Ride to live

    I was addicted to the "Hokey-Pokey" but I've turned
    myself around.

  7. #7

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    No no, that could be it actually! I'll have to do some more Baden-centered research, but I believe Baden swords shared the same hilt style as Bavarian. If I can confirm his sword could also be Baden in make, then that could explain the portepee, perhaps it is a Baden portupee as well. Good stuff mate, you might be on to something.

  8. #8
    MAP
    MAP is offline
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    I will add...for what it is worth, that it looks like he is wearing his issued "Wagner" PLM and not a private purchase example...That said, this photo makes the enamel appear a very pale blue. PLM's are notoriously hard to get the correct color. I guess with B&W photos it was an issue as well.


    (Oh...I agree with Phil. That is an awesome photo. Although he grew in size, he was always a fashion hound).

    Here is what the correct color should be. The 2nd photo has two PLM's. The example that is the darker blue is a repro.


    Göring Sword and Knot ID, help needed

    Göring Sword and Knot ID, help needed
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  9. #9
    MAP
    MAP is offline
    ?

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    Also as far as the Prussian / Bavarian issue. Notice that he is wearing a Prussian pilots badge (Juncker design?) and not a Bavarian example.
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  10. #10

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    Yes, I'm not certain as to why, but my experience in coloring pour le merites is that they often come out too bright in b&w photos. I wonder why that might be...

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