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17th/21st Queen Royal Lancers motto

Article about: Hello all, I would please like some opinions on this motto i found. Is there any chance this is a cap badge from ww1/ww2 era? There are many variants out there and i feel like i'm overloaded

  1. #11
    Dos
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    Quote by Jerry B View Post
    I am happy to be corrected about bronze versions if you find some genuine examples
    Ian mentioned this in the first link that i posted (Thread from Adrian). But no clear picture is shown on that example. Nor do i know if his knowledge on these is good.

    My knowledge on these is very slim !

    Quote by Jerry B View Post
    I should add the seller of the motto that started this thread is known for selling items with weak provenance as originals, ie, not originals
    It has a hefty price to it and he has more of these motto's for sale. Normally not a platform that i buy on. Hence the weak provenance like you mention and the great amount of fakes present.

    Thank you for pointing this out.

    Hope to add a nice example to my collection soon

  2. #12
    CBH
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    I'm glad you saw my post, I'll get a couple new photos taken soon.

  3. #13

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    I have a few...
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture 17th/21st Queen Royal Lancers motto   17th/21st Queen Royal Lancers motto  

    17th/21st Queen Royal Lancers motto  
    Regards,

    Jerry

    Whatever its just an opinion.

  4. #14

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    Quote by Dos View Post
    Thanks Stuka f,

    I was convinced i found all the threads that were made on these..

    Adrian his post:

    "The Motto": 17th/21st Lancers cap badge

    And two posts from CBH:

    17th/ 21st Lancers Motto's

    Mottos 17th Lancers

    Are these the ones you mean?

    There is little information other then reference photo's and a mention of a variant with "ears" thats supposed to be WW1 era.

    Dos
    Here is one I was refearing to and not on your list.
    There must be more...
    Any thoughts on this 17/21st Lancers cap...
    Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
    cheers
    |<ris

  5. #15

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    Quote by Jerry B View Post
    I do not think it is an original, as far as I am aware they never made a bronze motto. Also the nose looks terrible imo.

    I'm a bit late to this (yes working again - slave labour!!) but I agree 100% with Jerry that there should not exist bronze mottoes! There was however a WWI brass economy version but this is not one of those. as Jerry says, this one has a bad case of rhinitis! The brass ones are rare because the regiment shunned them and whether OR' or Officers they should all be very similar in appearance. Some officers will opt for a private purchase hall marked silver item and they are really striking (but expensive).

    The period is very difficult to discern as the design hasn't changed over time. Even in hand it is difficult to be sure without good provenance.

    Of course, I am sure you are aware that it could not be WWI 17/21L as the amalgamation was not until 1922 and it was 1929 before it was mandatory for all personnel to wear the "Motto" So, if it were real (it's not) and WWI vintage it would be 17L.

    As an aside, after the battle of Quebec in 1759 Col John Hale was despatched to England on behalf of Gen Wolfe to bring the news of victory to King George. The King was so pleased that he granted Hale some land in Canada and the right to raise a new regiment of Light Dragoons which ultimately became 17L.

    With the honour came the right to choose the cap badge etc and out of respect for Gen Wolfe this badge was chosen as a physical manifestation of the motto "Death or Glory" hence it is never called a cap badge (unless you like being dismissed as an idiot by the initiated!) but a "Motto".

    Another thing to watch out for as they are sometimes sold as a Motto is the arm badge known as a "Chad" (no I don't know why!!) which is the same design but in reality looks very different.

    I also recognise the hideously affectatious green background in the sellers pics. I would only say "Caveat emptor"

    Regards

    Mark
    Last edited by Watchdog; 09-19-2020 at 08:33 PM. Reason: Typo
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  6. #16
    Dos
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    Great stuff gentlemen! Thank you Stuka f for searching and sharing that link/thread i missed.

    Nice cap Jerry, looks wonderful.

    Watchdog, You are making things clear for me and confirming that it will be hard to date a motto. Thank you.

    I now have some info and reference to work with to find myself a good piece.

    The only down side to all of this is that in order to find a world war example i need to have some good provenance or a cap that goes with it. Who knows what i will find

    But i think i will keep that aside for now and look for a 20th century example that is original!

    Cheers,

    Dos

  7. #17

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    Quote by Dos View Post
    ....

    But i think i will keep that aside for now and look for a 20th century example that is original!

    Cheers,

    Dos
    Very wise conclusion.
    That is what I did too.
    However I still hope to get a 17th/21st Queen Royal Lancers chapska,... one day.
    Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
    cheers
    |<ris

  8. #18

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    Quote by Dos View Post
    The only down side to all of this is that in order to find a world war example i need to have some good provenance or a cap that goes with it. Who knows what i will find

    But i think i will keep that aside for now and look for a 20th century example that is original!
    I think your best idea is to compare with other badges of known authenticity from WWI/WWII from which you will be able to judge the construction and patina. Also, I think the type you need is the type with a slider rather than loops. Officers badges may have loops but a genuine issue ORs badge will generally have a slider (not saying there were never any with loops as there are manufacturing variations with most badges. I have just never seen an ORs motto with loops by which I was totally convinced!). Check out reputable dealers as, despite what some would tell you, these are not the most rare badges.

    Regards

    Mark

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  9. #19

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    Quote by stuka f View Post
    Very wise conclusion.
    That is what I did too.
    However I still hope to get a 17th/21st Queen Royal Lancers chapska,... one day.
    Just for the sake of clarity;

    Before 1922 it was The 17th (Duke of Cambridges' Own) Lancers.

    On amalgamation with The 21st (Empress of Indias') Lancers it was just; The 17th/21st Lancers.

    In 1993 on amalgamation with 16th/5th The Queens Royal Lancers the numbers were dropped and today it is simply The Queens Royal Lancers.

    So, any item to The 17th/21st Queens Royal Lancers would be "interesting" to say the least

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  10. #20

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    two that I have are or's on loops, they do exist as far as I am aware and mine were vetted on the brit badge forum.
    Regards,

    Jerry

    Whatever its just an opinion.

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