Union Jack or Flag?

[Didier]

Hello to everyone on here,
I would like you to tell me whether you think this is a (Navy) Union Jack or rather a Union Flag - my personal guess is that it may have been flown in a British city after 1945, as the fittings do not look all that old. At any rate, it was bought in a London antique shop some thirty years ago. It is of rather large dimensions: 2.50 by 1.40 m.








There is no marking whatsoever on it.

Regards,

Didier

[Watchdog]

Hello to everyone on here,
I would like you to tell me whether you think this is a (Navy) Union Jack or rather a Union Flag - my personal guess is that it may have been flown in a British city after 1945, as the fittings do not look all that old. At any rate, it was bought in a London antique shop some thirty years ago. It is of rather large dimensions: 2.50 by 1.40 m.

There is no marking whatsoever on it.

Regards,

Didier

Hi Didier,

First to explain the difference between Union Jack and Union Flag;

(Union) Jack is a naval term and refers to a flag flown from the "Jackstaff" at the bow of a vessel. Usually in port but not underway. In this case the size is relative to that of the vessel but is smaller (for obvious reasons of local dimensions) than the main flag flown at the masthead.

Union Flag is the name given to the UK national flag ie it is "The Flag of the Union", which is flown everywhere else.

However, the public in gerneral being insensitive to such distinctions have for all time referred to the Union Flag as the Union Jack to such a degree that Union Jack has now found its' way into the English Dictionary as the main reference whilst Union Flag seems to be regarded as somewhat archaic (people like me find that quite annoying if not downright offensive that such ignorance is allowed to prevail!).

Anyway,your flag seems to be be of the correct multipart stitched construction for an official flag (such construction represents the high end in private use too) but the material whilst difficult to discern accurately from the pics seems to be of a fine and perhaps modern weave. Can you say what the material is?

I agree that the fittings look modern in as much as the cord is clearly nylon / rayon or similar. The clips are each one half of an Inglefield clip which is appropriate and the design of which has not changed ever beyond manufacturing details. They are simply cast then the slot is cut.

However, the hoist (end with the white reinforcing tape that sits next to the pole), has been modified and never originally had a "Hoist line" which has been crudely added. The original fittings appear to be the two brass grommets which are not found on military flags generally and certainly not on a flag flown on a ship as it would not withstand the conditions for very long. Also, the hoist line on a period flag would have been sisal rope not modern synthetic cord.

On a military flag I would expect to see some kind of nomenclature marking. Sometimes it is words such as "Flag National....." (occasionally a makers name too) etc other times it is a stores stock number and on other occasions it is a combination of both depending on the exact period of issue.
It can include a date of issue as well as manfacturer. That is intended to indicate "service life expiry" although that tends to be more a means to justify a replacement than actual necessity.

In short, my view would be that this is a good quality flag of fairly recent manufacture and ideal for background display in a collection (much better than modern flimsy printed tourist garbage) but that it is not military so therefore not a "military artifact" in itself.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Mark

[Jerry B]

what Mark said.

[Didier]

Thank you very much for this very precise assessment of the flag, Mark.

Actually, I am well aware of the difference between a flag and a jack, as I am a French Navy reserve officer.

The flag is made of a rather thick cotton - would you by any chance know when the use of cotton was discontinued as far as flag making is concerned?

Regards,

Didier

[Watchdog]

Actually, I am well aware of the difference between a flag and a jack, as I am a French Navy reserve officer.

Outstanding!

I am 100% khaki in my history and outlook but my son is currently serving in HMS Defender so I do also have an appreciation of what we call the "senior service" so a jack is a jack, a flag is a flag and never the twain shall meet (apologies to Rudyard Kipling for that one!)

As for the change in material it is very difficult to tell as current flags are made of an almost identical cloth to the eye that has some sythetic material blended in to improve the characteristics. It is easier to tell by such things as the obviously synthetic hoist line and markings such as part numbers which are a dead give away.

As for the time frame that is even more difficult because such a change is always gradual unlike a new uniform for instance and tends to depend on depletion of existing stocks etc because two things that look so similar in use often continue in tandem with the older one being held as "obsolescent" rather than "obsolete" (sorry I don't have good enough French to express the difference but obsolescent items remain in service until no longer fit and are then replaced by the new item whereas obsolete means no longer in service if that makes sense though I believe the French words are similar just don't know about meaning). The short answer is that there are more factors to consider than just the cloth

I hope this helps

Regards

Mark

[Jerry B]

I have A 2003 dated; FLAG NATIONAL UK & NORTHERN IRELAND as it is now officially called....

[Watchdog]

I have A 2003 dated; FLAG NATIONAL UK & NORTHERN IRELAND as it is now officially called....

Ideal example Jerry as this has; maker mark, military nomenclature (Flag National etc), the UK NATO Stock Number, dimensions, date of manufacture ( NB not issue) and contract number all we need there is a unit possession mark (unusual and likely done at the whim of a storeman!).

Thanks for the illustration.

Regards

Mark
PS I have a large white ensign somewhere which I think is marked. I will dig it out.

[Watchdog]

Looks like I already posted it;

WWII White Ensign

Regards

Mark

[tdurbinmas]

I have a few British military flags including a couple of white ensigns, commissioning pennants and rank flags. They're mostly post-WW2 so they have the slide-on rings. Your flag, as with my white ensigns, has a unique series of rope, clips and grommets in the header for fastening. In the top part of the canvas header there is a short piece of wood, maybe 4" to 6" and the the rope exits the header. Maybe someone can explain that construction detail because it is unique to British flags. The older flags I have utilized manila/hemp rope. your rope is synthetic.

One of the normal governmental/military markings include the broadhead arrow, along with other nomenclature and a date. Sometimes these fade, so maybe your Jack has faint markings?

It looks like a naval flag based on my limited UK flag collecting experience.

[Didier]

Thank you to all of you for this input!
To me, the synthetic rope looks like a much later addition, as if this jack (if it is indeed a naval one) had been re-used - the stitching also looks somewhat more modern where the different pieces of rope are fastened.
There is no marking that I can make out.



This part of the jack (or flag!) does look very familiar to me, though: