Ottoman Turkish cannon crest

[Watchdog]

This is an intriguing piece I recently obtained from close friend whose grandfather (?) originally owned and may have been the one who brought it to UK.

I only know that it is taken from the barrel of a Turkish cannon around the time of WWI so most likely from the area of Mesopotamia perhaps?

I don't know exactly what type of gun it is from but I think the term "field gun" is apt.

It measures 6 inches (15 cm) X 4.25 inches (11 cm) and is cast in bronze.

I believe the monogram or Tughra is that of Sultan Mehmed V who reigned until 1918 rather than Mehmed VI who was the last Sultan up to 1926.

If anyone can give me more information about this or even show a picture of one actually in place on a gun I would be delighted.

It is one of those "miscellaneous" items that I think appear in most militaria collections and one reason that I added it is that I quite simply, just like it.



Regards

Mark

[Tinhat]

I can see why you would want that.

I borrowed this photo from this thread, Turkish Artillery - Page 27 - Axis History Forum which looks to be it.



Steve

[AZPhil]

A very unique piece.
And yeah, I would want it too!!!!

Congrats on that find.

Semper Fi
Phil

[Watchdog]

Thanks lads

This is proving more difficult to "peg" than I anticipated.

I have long been aware of these crests appearing in UK as apparent "War trophies" quite often attached to wooden plaques etc but there never seems to be much supporting background information or provenance. Being attached to the cannon with screws rather than cast into the gun barrel as with most countries ordnance they are an obvious candidate for souvenir hunting on the battlefield which explains a lot. However, that's not enough for the collector right?

Despite the lack of information I have seen these sold in UK for low to mid three figure range with even obvious repros attracting in excess of the £100 level. In the US I have seen a couple move into the four figures but I really consider that to be somewhat "rogue".

The Imperial War Museum, London does have at least one in the collection but even there the information is limited more or less to how it was acquired rather than it's actual use.

I'm now quite motivated to find out more especially photographs of it in-situ so I shall continue digging and will post in this thread anything useful that I uncover.
In the meantime, if anyone has or finds anything relevant please post it here.

Regards

Mark

[Tinhat]

Mark, your one is curved to fit on a barrel correct? I was taking another look, you would expect to see the mounting holes on the cannon if no plaque, the only image that looked possible is this one, which again is from the same thread I posted, but on the breech.



The only images I can find of artillery pieces with a plaque fitted are the mortar.



This is a good challenge, being screwed on makes it too easy to be a souvenir and the task a little harder.

Steve

[Watchdog]

Thanks Steve, yes indeed and one would expect that these were removed when guns were scrapped.

The plaque is curved as you say and the radius (haven't worked it out precisely) suggests a diameter in keeping with what one would expect of a field gun of the period.
I don't know for sure but I am working on the assumption that it would be located in the same area as on early cannon of the Napoleonic period and earlier ie on top of the breech end just in-front of the touch hole (on earlier guns of course).

As the plaque is made of bronze (pretty sure it's not brass) I am leaning towards a bronze cannon which would of course be obsolescent (as opposed to obsolete) by WWI but all the info I can find suggests WWI Middle East and I wonder whether the Ottoman Turks were still using such cannon in places like Mesopotamia?
The answer is out there (like the X-Files) and I will find it and enjoy it all the more if friends and colleagues here can contribute!

Thanks for your input thus far

Regards
PS I just looked at that last pic again and I can see what I think you were alluding to. Is it the oval patch of discolouration directly on top of the breech block?

As you say, the plaque would have to be flat to sit there and the patch appears too large by about 50%. Also, anything other than a thin plate in that location would obscure the gunners iron sight immediately in front of the patch.

Mark

[AZPhil]

OK Mark,
I just spent sometime in the Bing world and found this info about your plaque that will give a time frame.


This does look like the one you picked up.
I found it here,
I would have posted the photo but THEY gave me a new Guberment pc and it is limiting.

Ottoman Artillery Cannon Brass Coat of Arms - Mayer Antiques & Collectibles


Still trying to find one mounted on a cannon.




Semper Fi
Phil

[Watchdog]

Thanks Phil,

I saw the one offered by Mayer Antiques for what I think is a fairly optimistic price!

This site shows a Krupp M1910 75mm gun with the same device (it's actually the coat of arms of the Ottoman Empire) engraved on the barrel so I imagine the applique type is earlier;

Lovett Artillery - 9cm. C/ 1873 Kanone

(if this link is lost over time the gun shown is a Krupp 9cm C/73)

The Imperial War Museum describe theirs as;

"One of three crests that were removed from a captured Turkish field gun taken in Allenby's advance in Palestine in September 1918. These crests were taken off the field guns themselves."

Allenby refers to Fd Marshall Edmund Allenby.

The UK National Army Museum has this to say about him (I'm posting a link as there is too much to copy and I expect the NAM may just last longer than we do!!);

Edmund Allenby: The bull | National Army Museum.

This is getting interesting.

Regards

Mark

[AZPhil]

Hello Mark,

I am a member of a Cannon and Mortars group on FB.
They post Cannons from all ages. That had me thinking,

I was wondering if you would mind if I posted a pic of the plaque on there?

I wanted to see if any of the BOOMBOOM Boy's might have that image of it on a Barrel.

Let me know

Semper Fi
Phil

[Watchdog]

Hello Mark,

I am a member of a Cannon and Mortars group on FB.
They post Cannons from all ages. That had me thinking,

I was wondering if you would mind if I posted a pic of the plaque on there?

I wanted to see if any of the BOOMBOOM Boy's might have that image of it on a Barrel.

Let me know

Semper Fi
Phil

Hi Phil,

Thanks for asking but I have no objection to any pics I post here being re-posted elsewhere in the same context. I think that is a great idea and welcome information from such a source!

For my part I am trawling as many ordnance related sites/collector groups as I can find. I have also submitted an enquiry to the UK Imperial War Museum through their website. They are quite good these days and I am sure that if they have the info it will be forthcoming.

This is becoming something of a quest

I am sure the question will be answered eventually!

Regards

Mark