1883 series naval swords

[Alban L]

Good evening all,

First contribution by here, I would like to know if anyone has a precise idea of ​​the regulations concerning the 1883 series of japanese imperial navy swords.
Information we usually find is rather confusing on the dates (1883/1896/1914) and their precise implications, and I would like to see more clearly !

First japanese navy regulation sword in 1873, whose hilt is very close to french 1845/55 infantry swords or US Navy 1852 sword, initiates a distinction between 3 variants for flag officers, senior and junior officers, and NCOs. Here is a 1873 archive in french national library presenting these different variants (not so precise drawings but still of interest) :
[Uniformes de la Marine japonaise] | Gallica







I understand the principle of 3 variants for flag officers, senior and junior officers, and NCOs was kept with the new sword introduced in 1883 (which date exactly?).
We find both 1883 swords with traditional blades and lighter european style blades. Can we call all these swords "navy Kyu Gunto" or only the ones with traditional blades ?

I am quite unsure of what changed precisely in 1896. This date is often associated with "parade swords" with lighter european blades, but seems these light swords existed before that date. On a famous Ukiyo-e, japanese officers in China (1894-1895) are represented carrying these light swords (or was the artist inspired by variants after 1896?).
Is there really sense to mention a "1896 sword ?"



Finally in 1914 (still which date precisely ?) it is easier, the patterns for flag officers and NCOs are deleted to keep the senior/junior officer sword as base for everyone.

I had a look at Richard Fuller and Ron Gregory book which only gives 1896 and 1914 as dates, and don't even mention 1883. Other french sources are quite confusing too. I have not seen the Dawson book, perhaps it is more precise about these 1883 series swords.

I saw on this thread regulation dates for naval dirks :evolution of naval dirks
Should probably be the same dates for swords regulations, could anyone confirm it ?

Sorry it that wasn't clear enough, I'll try my best to be more precise if needed !

_________________

EDIT : following Nick indications on the dirks thread, just found these two regulations :

1883 :
海軍将校以下ノ服制改正・二条

1896 :
海軍服制改正・御署名原本・明治二� �九年・勅令第三百二十四号

Good point, but as I can't read japanese, cannot draw conclusions from these two documents.
Seems there is no difference between two regulations, 3 variants for flag officers / officers / NCOs existing since 1883, can't say if 1896 regulations changes anything.

Same single handed swords on both regulations. Perhaps lighter blades on the drawings, could confirm the introduction of light "parade swords" in 1896, but difficult to be sure as blades are not shown. I rather believe it is a matter of scale in the drawings and that there is actually no difference, the regulation of 1896 only confirming that of 1883.



Any information/comments are welcomed !

Alban

[Nick Komiya]

Here's what you need. By the way, "Kyu Gunto" only means "Previous Model Gunto", so any model not in current use are all Kyu Gunto, whatever blade type they may be.

[Alban L]

Thank you very much Nick, I didn't have these intermediate regulations.
So basically, there is only a 1883 sword pattern with 3 variants, and standardization in 1914. There is technically no 1896 pattern, we should not mention any "1896 parade sword". This is only a 1883 sword with a light european blade.

Based on your very complete schema, the only slight change in 1896 is for flag officers : before 1883 the general grade scabbard fittings were decorated with several cherry blossoms (only one for the other officers). From 1896 they were replaced by a Paulownia flower until the standardization of 1914.

[Nick Komiya]

Here's a spreadsheet of a survey of the actual specs as described in the regulations. The paulownia was always featured but was merely emphasized in design from the General's model of 1896. Also a length change occurred in 1907. So one can talk of Model 1883, 1896 and 1907, based on hardware variations.

[Alban L]

Really appreciate this synthesis Nick

Just to illustrate the evolution of admiral sword, with paulownia emphasis you underlined since 1896 :



Other officers sword didn’t change since 1883, becoming standard for all in 1914. However I noticed slight differences on the handle, probably no real differences but drawings imperfections.



Last, regarding length of scabbard/blade, 2 shaku and 3 sun (70cm / 27,5") is coherent with observed length of machine-made light blades. Alternative length of 2 shaku and 8 sun mentioned in 1907 seems quite long, (around 85cm / 33,5" if I'm not mistaking). Maybe the objective was to have the traditional-bladed swords officialized in regulation ?

Thanks again for all these details, way more clear now !

[Nick Komiya]

Here are illustrations from the gazette for detail comparisons

[Kiipu]

The 海軍服制 [Naval Dress Regulations] can be found in volume 7 of the 海軍制度沿革 [History of Naval Organization]. The regulations are in 第十二篇 服制 旗章 [Chapter 12 Dress Regulations Flag Insignia]. It has many illustrations of the different naval swords, tassels, belts, and buckles. This was the reference used by Dawson in his 2007 book. This volume is available online via the National Diet Library (NDL).

Kaigun daijin kanbō 海軍大臣官房 [Naval Minister’s Secretariat]. Kaigun seido enkaku 海軍制度沿革 [History of Naval Organization]. Maki 7 巻七 [Volume 7]. 1940.
海軍制度沿革　巻7

[Kiipu]

Alban, have you ever run across this so-called "Japanese" dirk/dagger before?
Nice WWII Japanese Dirk dagger