Ww2 SAYA

[26Intrepid]

Hello all,

I have a question in regard to a WW2 Officer’s sword I picked up a couple years ago, it wasn’t sold with a saya. A friend of mine let me purchase one he wasn’t using just so I could store the blade and not just lean it against a wall.

The blade actually fits very well. A lot of people told me that it would be very difficult to find a saya that fits because they were made to fit the sword. I guess I lucked out.

My question is, would this saya be correct for the sword? The wood is very rough and isn't the smooth lacquered wood that one would expect these types of swords to be in (or metal). A fitting is missing from the bottom and also looked as if something was wrapped around the top. The only other issue with the saya would be... the hole on the top fitting doesn’t line up with the push button locking piece of the sword. It’s a bit too forward.

The sword blade isn’t in great shape but the handle and fittings are. It has a family mon on the handle and the habaki has silver foil wrapped around. I was told it’s an officers sword and blade dates back to the 17th century.

Thanks for any help. It’s just another project I’ve been trying to work on.

[ghp95134]

Can you remove the handle and show us both sides of the tang?

You lucked out finding a scabbard that fits. There might have been post-war tape applied to the top of the scabbard resulting in that sort of finish. The bottom lacks the 石突 ishizuki as you state. Bruce or someone else will chime in and probably give you a hint where to get a preplacement.

-- Guy

[DaveR]

Ebay is your friend for odd fittings.

[26Intrepid]

Hi Guy,

Yes, I’m lucky that it fits nicely... thus the reason why I hope this wooden saya is “Somewhat” correct for the WW2 sword. I assume a leather covering was wrapped around it at one time.

As you can see, I posted this sword in February on this forum. I wanted to find out as much info as I could on the blade and maker. Nick was most gracious to take time and figure out who the sword maker was. I added his comments to this post.

Unfortunately, the tang was severely rusted because of water damage (I assume) that was never taken care of. A lot of the metal is missing from the tang and the makers signature is very hard to read. Once again, thanks Nick!

I was gonna add this to the original post but decided to make a new one.

[ghp95134]

Nick hit a wrong key, it's not "Miyamoto" but Minamoto:

伊予掾源正次
Iyo no Jō Minamoto Masatsugu

Nick's certainly right about the number of Masatsugu names are in the lineage: over 60!! From Kanin (1017-1021) through Showa. Below the last paragraph are the listings from Markus Sesko's book; I've listed anyone with 源正次 [Minamoto Masatsugu] in the name. None of these names listed signed with 伊予掾 Iyo no Jō. Iyo is a city in Shikoku.

However, I did find a Katana Sales shop (those generally have the same rep as used car salesmen!) that identified the signature (of its sword) as the second generation MASAtsugu:

商品番号：M-254　刀　伊予掾源正次（二代伊予掾宗次初期銘）　特別保存刀剣� �定書付き
Katana:Iyonojo Minamoto no Masatsugu　金象嵌）二ッ胴截断　寛文� �年五月廿二日 (一六六八年) 人見伝兵衛重次 (花押)　新刀・肥前　江戸前期

[probably useless information! No image of the tang for comparison]


========
From Markus Sesko's book:

MASATSUGU (正次), Bunroku (文禄, 1592-1596), Hizen – “Hizen no Kuni-jū Minamoto Masatsugu” (肥前国住源 正次), family name Sakai (境), he also bore the first names Oribe (織部), Oribe no Suke (織部之允), and Kuranojō (内蔵丞), according to tradition the father of Iyo no Jō Munetsugu (伊予掾宗次)

MUNETSUGU (宗次), 2nd gen., Kan´ei (寛永, 1624-1644), Hizen – “Hizen Saga-jū Minamoto Muneyasu” (肥前佐賀住源宗安), “Iyo no Jō nidai-me Minamoto Masatsugu Bushū Edo ni oite kore o saku” (伊予掾二代目源正次於武州江戸作之, “made by Minamoto Masatsugu in Edo in Musashi province, 2nd gen. Iyo no Jō”), “Hizen no Kuni-jūnin Iyo no Jō Minamoto Munetsugu” (肥前国住人伊予掾源宗次), “Minamoto Munetsugu” (源宗次), real name Sakai Rinjūrō (境林十郎), he took over the first name Kuranojō (内蔵丞) of his grandfather, his lord Nabeshima Katsushige (鍋島勝茂, 1580-1657) granted him on the ninth day of the ninth month Kan´ei nine (1632) the smith name Muneyasu (宗安) but he changed that later successively to Masatsugu (正次) and Munetsugu, he died in the third year of Tenna (天和, 1683) and worked in the style of the 1st gen. Munetsugu, jō-saku

MASAMITSU (正光), Bunsei (文政, 1818-1830), Settsu – “Nanki-jū Hatakeyama Yamato no Suke Minamoto Masatsugu” (南紀住畠山大和介源正次), “Sesshū-jū Hatekeyama Yamato no Suke Masatsugu” (摂州住畠山大和 介源正次), “Hatakeyama Yamato no Suke Minamoto Ason Masamitsu” (畠山大和介源朝臣正光), “Kifu Hatakeyama Yamato no Suke Minamoto Masamitsu” (紀府畠山大和介源正光), he came according to tradition originally from Bizen province, student of Suishinshi Masahide (水心子正秀) and of the Yasutomo (安濤) who was active around Bunka (文化, 1804-1818), he also carved a chrysanthemum onto his tangs and also signed with Masatsugu (正次), chū-saku

MASATSUGU (正次), Ansei (安政, 1854-1860), Yamashiro – “Yamashiro-jūnin Masatsugu saku” (山城住人 正次作), “Yamashiro-jū Horii Minamoto Masatsugu kore o saku” (山城住堀井源正次作之), “Horii Minamoto Masatsugu kore o tsukuru” (堀井源正次造之)

MASATSUGU (正次), Ansei (安政, 1854-1860), Harima – “Banshū Himeji-shin Masatsugu” (播州姫路臣正次), “Banshū Himeji-shin Minamoto Masatsugu” (播州姫路臣源正次), he worked for the Himeji fief (姫路藩)

MASATSUGU (正次), Genji (元治, 1864-1865), Hitachi – “Jōshū Kasama-jū Minamoto Masatsugu” (常州笠間住源正次), “Hitachi no Kuni Kasama-jūnin Minamoto Masatsugu saku” (常陸国笠間住人源正次作), “Kasama-han Hoshirō Takehachirō Minamoto Masatsugu saku” (笠間藩保城武八郎源正次作), real name Hoshirō Takehachirō (保城武八郎, the first name can also read Buhachirō), he worked for the Kasama fief (笠間藩) of Hitachi province which was ruled by the Makino family (牧野)

MASATSUGU (正次), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Tokushima – “Minamoto Masatugu saku” (源正次作), “Masatsugu” (正次), “Mitsuyo saku Masatsugu” (光世作正次), real name Fujisawa Toshio (藤沢敏雄)

MASATSUGU (正次), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Ōsaka – “Heianjō Okishiba Minamoto Masatsugu” (平安城 沖芝源正次), real name Okishiba Masatsugu (沖芝正次), he studied under his father Okishiba Yōkichi Masatsugu (沖芝要吉正次), rikugun-jumei-tōshō.

-- Guy

[26Intrepid]

Guy,

When I initially took the handle off... nothing but a ton of rust debris fell out. The tang literally disintegrated before my eyes. I removed most of the loose dust and this is what was left. As you can see... not much.

And... I’m not a sword guy. What is the short version of what you wrote so I can understand. Grin.. it sounds very informative and interesting but I’m not grasping it.

Here’s some picks of the tang. I don't have any picks of the tang after removing the handle.

Thank you
D

[ghp95134]

And... I’m not a sword guy. What is the short version of what you wrote so I can understand. Grin.. it sounds very informative and interesting but I’m not grasping it.

Mostly it does not apply to your's sword, I think.

Here’s some picks of the tang. I don't have any picks of the tang after removing the handle.

Nick did a fantastic job of reading that!!! I sure couldn't do it.

does the other side have anything written? Mostly the smith's name is on one side and the date (if one) is on the other side.

-- Guy

[26Intrepid]

I will look... I think there’s something... but man, it really did take a beating with the rust. I will try to get better photos in the sun tomorrow and post.

It’s kinda of neat knowing this is an old sword. If Nick is correct... possibly the 17th century?

D

[Bruce Pennington]

D,

Your saya quite accurate for your sword. There were numerous variations on them, including color and finish. It took me 2 years to find a sayajiri (end piece) for my dad's Mantetsu, but I DID find one! Like Dave said, there are ususally a few people offering them on ebay. A guy that seems to have a lot of parts runs the website Crimson Mist Militaria - Crimson Mist Military Antiques - Welcome to our Range of Products

Another place to try is: The Fuchi/Kashira Orphanage - For Sale or Trade - Nihonto Message Board

The fit on your koiguchi (scabbard mouth) is a shame, but you might get lucky on that too at these places.

[26Intrepid]

Thank you Bruce for the info!

Most of the officers swords I see have metal saya’s... so I wasn’t sure if this rough wood type was an accurate replacement.

I have another question.. what’s the best way to remove the Koiguchi? I figure they used some type of glue? Maybe heat would help to soften the glue and remove? I just don’t want to damage the piece or the wood underneath. The fittings on this saya have a reddish cast to them. It’s actually in pretty decent shape for its age.

I figure it’s gonna take a while to find parts and put back together. The foil on the habaki is torn. The foil is thin and will be impossible to fix or repair. I’m hoping to come across one of these as well (close to impossible right?). The last piece I need is the spring on the locking mechanism “Chuzo” (Don’t know if that’s the correct terminology). The water got to it as well as it rusted completely off. I think it could be repaired but I’d rather have a original.

I found out already that pieces that cost pennies to make during the day cost a fortune to replace today!

Thanks you again for the info!
D