(Dress?) portepee on a service K98 bayonet?

[Kris1981]

Hi,

I was browsing the threads and came upon this excellent discussion about bayonet knots:

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/k98-b...marine-311423/

A question arose: Would the white/green NCO knot be applicable to my K98 1942 bayonet...? From what I'm reading and opinions I'm getting - these were worn as dress, not in service. I'm also aware this could very well be the obvious answer - but still.

I'm still not sure however. Matching these items without any 'proof' seems like bending history to my own rules if you know what I mean. I'm not very keen on just matching these things.

What are your opinions on this?

[Sleepwalker]

Hello,

there still exist dress an service Troddeln (konts), also by NCO (Unteroffizier) knots. There are different in manufacturing, quality and material.
Dress knots (Extra-Troddeln) were manly worn with dress bayonets (Extra-Seitengewehre). The service knots in service.

First here is a service knot.

[Sleepwalker]

Here are there types of typical dress knots... i think you an see the differences

[Sleepwalker]

But the main Source, beside the orders and regulations, allways must be original pictures.

Here only 4 examles...

[Kris1981]

Brilliant! Exactly what I was looking for ;-) I didn't notice the subtle difference in design before. I'm in new territory with these and learning every day.

Thanks.

[Kris1981]

Does this apply to these troddels aswell? I have two polizei troddeln, but they are slightly different from each-other. The one on the bottom has a leather strap and silver stitching, the on above has what I think a felt strap and white stitching (could have been silver once though...). Both have the same dimensions.

Is one of them fake?

Or does this illustrate another difference between dress and service models?

Or... were troddels different wether assigned to a polizei bayonet, or a re-issued model 84/98 or 98/05 perhaps?

[Anderson]

This thread is worthwhile revisiting. There is still confusion with some collectors regarding the use of troddels, "troddeln" or knots and bayonets. I think the common belief is these were only attached to the "dress" or parade KS98 bayonets, which were largely private purchase. And for the combat S84/98, in field use, a troddel was not attached. But that is not correct.

We know from World War I German soldiers were wearing troddels attached to their S98/05 "butcher bayonets" in the trenches until about 1915 when the mud caked troddels were both a security risk and annoying to the wearer. But post WW1 with the Reichswehr and later the Wehrmacht in the mid 1930's the practice of troddels on S84/98 in field conditions returned, that is clear in photos of the time, as SW earlier pointed out.

It's likely the practice of troddels on field exercises probably ended in 1939 when war broke out, and again probably for unit security reasons (the colours indicate bataillon & kompanie).

If you have a S84/98 made in the 1930's and with a combat frog without strap retainer ( in other words for "unmounted troops), it would be quite correct to add a troddel for an enlisted man or NCO of the appropriate type.

Here's a few more photos going back to the Reichswehr (1930) and in 1934 giving the Hitler oath. We can see both parade and field use of troddels on combat bayonets (and combat type frogs). It's a myth buster.

[Frogprince]

My thanks to Anderson for refreshing and adding to an excellent topic. Something that also touches on daggers and sabers as well as the dress and combat bayonets - bayonet knots saw use in the early combat years. But starting in 1935 as a class of edged weapon accessory changes began, and in very early 1942 an additional change was made with one sub-group to conserve materials for the war effort. Early 1943 seeing the termination of production, although already pre-existing knots could still be worn. Best Regards, Fred

[Sleepwalker]

Hi there,

Knots for the army, the navy or the SS as well as Tassels for the air force were also issued for official purposes.
The service pieces are coarser, more stable, slightly larger and made of different materials than the private tassels.

They were issued until 1943.

They were probably only worn on request. Here, too, there are corresponding pictures that prove wearing.
But after 1939 Tregen was already significantly restricted.
Knots and Tassels don't even make sense anymore.