Kriegsmarine 1st model Hörster reproduction dagger - Learning, Sharing & Knowledge

[Rossi]

1st model Kriegsmarine by maker E & F Horster. Please opine with your assessment & knowledge. This is one Danny, Ger & Larry C have carnal knowledge upon so I will ask them to hold off until everyone has weighed in upon this thread.

Can you or do you know why this piece has issues? What things can you spot?

This dagger has sparked a quality debate and good discussions off line between our Kriegs gang lead by Danny & Ger. We say no good and have pointed out many reasons why this is not a period piece. The dealer entity who sold me the dagger swears its good and our proof is not correct. We have had good professional dialog in private. My brothers have been super resources in the process. I am sharing so many can learn from my overlook on this piece. The debate between myself and the original seller many years ago has resulted in the piece being returned. While he and I will disagree on the issues as collectors the seller has done the right thing and after years took the piece back. In respect I will not name the source since they did the proper thing. He is honorable and stood by the return policy.

This thread is to educate on this 1st model reproduction and not to bash anyone. May we all learn from it.

[little big man]

Il have a go at this, double fuller blade grooves look like they come too far down onto the ricasso, white buffer pad, maker mark on the wrong side, maybe wrong grip wire, it lacks age and patina, lack of detail on triple serated eyelets, single scabbard screw wrong.

[Rossi]

On track, hit many of issues and nice observations....There is even more. Danny and Ger since you guys helped me identify the issues with Etched logo mark & also the sailing ship etch please feel free to add. I can go into great detail but think Danny can do better than I. Little Big Man...Good eyes

Il have a go at this, double fuller blade grooves look like they come too far down onto the ricasso, white buffer pad, maker mark on the wrong side, maybe wrong grip wire, it lacks age and patina, lack of detail on triple serated eyelets, single scabbard screw wrong.

[dr73]

Some good points were made by little big man. A navy scabbard with a single screw on the reverse isn't period. The gripwire is typical for post war grips. Also a white bufferpad on a navy dagger is a good indication for a repro.
Here's some more information on this particular dagger. First the trademark. Hörster used two types of trademarks. The first one they used was the stamped version. Later in the war they used the etched trademark. This dagger is a 1929 model so an etched trademark doesn't fit the timeframe of this model.

Second the etch. I have never seen the sailingship etch on a Hörster navy dagger. But what is more important, the combination of an etched Hörster trademark and a sailingship etch certainly isn't period. Only a few makers have used the sailing ship etch on their blades. It is safe to say that all makers that used both etch-types (sailingship and fouled anchor), started with the sailingship etch and used the fouled anchor type after that. Examples of such makers are WKC and Puma. Since the stamped trademark of Hörster is frequently seen with the fouled anchor etch, it can be ruled out that the sailing ship etch was used in combination with the late war etched trademark.

Here are some pictures of my Hörster navy dagger with the stamped Hörster trademark and the fouled anchor etch.

Than the model itself. I personally doubt that Hörster ever made a 1929 model navy dagger. When you look at the flaming ball pommel and compare it to originals you can see it lacks the characteristics of the hand enhancements.

Like I said, the scabbard is a reproduction but they didn't take a Hörster scabbard as an example. The edges of the scabbard bands are very similar to the typical scabbard bands that were used by Höller.

Danny

[dr73]

Hörster was one of the companies that continued to produce navy daggers after the war. Some of the main characteristics of these post war daggers are:
1. Etched Hörster trademark
2. Sailingship etch
The etch on these daggers is in most cases very convincing.
Another post war trademark the Hörster firm used on their reproduction navy daggers is the one without the oval and with the big H.

I've added a few pictures for reference.

Danny

[dr73]

This is really great news I'm really glad that this particular dagger isn't offered as an original anymore! Thanks for your contribution to our great hobby.

Danny

[gerrit]

Little big men you kicked off pretty accurate and named a couple of good points!!
Danny, well my friend, what more can be add?
Thx for pointing out the red flags, now this reference post is clear to be found for anyone who needs accurate data.

Thx Rossi for posting!

Ger

[AZPhil]

Thank you Gentlemen. Your KEEN eyes and your attention to the fine details has got to be commended. It is also just a reminder to me to post here before buying a dagger that I would have thought coming from a reputable dealer( I have his dagger pocket reference book) would be without a doubt 100% correct.
Thank you again Gents! This has been a learning experience and a fine example of why I will continue to support this site.
Semper Fi
Phil

[dr73]

I found another fake Hörster, currently offered for sale on an auctionsite at a "buy now" price of € 1100 . Again you can see the combination of the etched trademark and sailingship etch. Also the typical post war pressed out scabbard bands, single screw (screw is missing but the hole is clearly visible) in the scabbard and repro grip. Not to mention the terrible buffer pad The quality of the etch is really good but the pommel is terrible.

Danny

[dr73]

I came across another Hörster reproduction navy. Also currently offered on an auction site. Interesting is the fact that this one isn't offered as an original TR piece. The description says it's a dagger that was made in the 50's or 60's specially made for veterans. Also interesting is the fact that an original TR portepee is attached to the dagger. Here are some pictures.

Danny