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Luftwaffe forestry knife Waffen-Loesche Ch. A. W.

Article about: Sometimes your searching for something and you come by chance across a gem that has been on the wishlist for quite some years. Arriving just before Christmas its my pricvate present for unde

  1. #91

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    "Having the Ch.A.W. marking on the ricasso makes it already a Luft issued knife if its the abbr.of " Chef d. Ausbiltungs-Wesen" because that was Luftwaffe department."

    Mate, that is one theory, that's all. it's not proof. "makes it already a Luft issued knife." I don't think so. An interesting theory but a long way from proof. You will find more collectors supporting the Arthur Wingen connection you so kindly highlighted in post 20, so let's see the photos of the mauser rifles, do the stamps even look similar?

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  3. #92
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    Quote by Anderson View Post
    "Having the Ch.A.W. marking on the ricasso makes it already a Luft issued knife if its the abbr.of " Chef d. Ausbiltungs-Wesen" because that was Luftwaffe department."

    Mate, that is one theory, that's all. it's not proof. "makes it already a Luft issued knife." I don't think so. An interesting theory but a long way from proof. You will find more collectors supporting the Arthur Wingen connection you so kindly highlighted in post 20, so let's see the photos of the mauser rifles, do the stamps even look similar?

    Well if you read the line correctly it says..... IF.......
    makes it already a Luft issued knife if its the abbr.of " Chef d. Ausbiltungs-Wesen"

    So far all we have are theories as we are still in the progress of finding out by WHOM these were issued.
    In that light this new theory is just as good as the old one, isnt it?

    Keep an open mind, and abandon whats not right

  4. #93
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    [QUOTE=Frogprince;1807628]It’s a little more than that now, but as briefly as I can: George Wheeler has a roughly 2 page entry in his book that states that Forestry officials could be from landowners, state governments, the national government, or the military. He mentions Göring and goes on to say that the “Luftwaffe officials” had a separate “Forestry officials branch” that wore a specific green uniform cut like a Luftwaffe uniform with a Luftwaffe eagle etc. etc. and that the ranking/senior Forestry NCO's (Unteroffiziere met Portepee) wore the knife being discussed that had a polished blade, stag grips, and nickel silver screws/bolts.

    Nothing more being said about the Luftwaffe-forestry type uniform mentioned in post 58 by Fred. If there was a Luftwaffe-forestry type uniform (can anyone find any pics of it) its possible there was also a Luftwaffe-forestry type dagger to go with it. If the forests needed patrolling and with Goring being the head of the Luftwaffe he could have supplied some Luft personnel to do the job, a uniform would be needed to look the part/official and just like every other department which had a dagger, someone popped down the hunting/dagger shop and bought a load of daggers for them. These being the property of the Luftwaffe were marked and others bought privately at the shop were not. Could be that simple.

    Tomaz.

  5. #94

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    "abbr.of " Chef d. Ausbiltungs-Wesen" because that was Luftwaffe department."

    Except you have misquoted the post. I went and found that post on another forum that raised the story about what Ch.A.W. might mean and the .22 training mausers.
    What the poster you quote actually said was that the marks on kar 98 rifles are believed to mean "Chef d. Ausbiltung- Wesen" and that meant the "ranking officer in charge of SA training." In fact Luftwaffe was not mentioned.

  6. #95

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    Tomaz the only problem with that simple solution is where patrols of Forests were made such as by the Forstschutzkommando, they used K98 rifles and combat bayonets, not something akin to a parade or dress bayonet. In fact it's not even a bayonet. Why would the Luftwaffe buy or supply forest guards a "walking out" side arm. These things were always private purchase for the military.

  7. #96

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    Quote by Tomaz View Post
    Nothing more being said about the Luftwaffe-forestry type uniform mentioned in post 58 by Fred. If there was a Luftwaffe-forestry type uniform (can anyone find any pics of it) its possible there was also a Luftwaffe-forestry type dagger to go with it. If the forests needed patrolling and with Goring being the head of the Luftwaffe he could have supplied some Luft personnel to do the job, a uniform would be needed to look the part/official and just like every other department which had a dagger, someone popped down the hunting/dagger shop and bought a load of daggers for them. These being the property of the Luftwaffe were marked and others bought privately at the shop were not. Could be that simple.
    Actually, both the Heer and the Luftwaffe had their own uniformed Wehrmachtforstbeamte [armed forces forestry officials].

    Not to be confused with the Forstschutzkommando (FSK) - which was a different body entirely - they were responsible for forestry duties within the respective service's training areas and other military installations.

    Their uniforms and insignia are covered in some detail in Schlicht & Angolia's classic "Uniforms and Traditions..." series. Brian L. Davis' "The Luftwaffe" also has some brief information on the Luftwaffe forestry officials.

    The documents posted by Wim (which I will soon translate) are from the uniform regulations for these military forestry officials, too (Heeresdienstvorschrift 120 and Luftwaffendienstvorschrift 84).
    Last edited by HPL2008; 01-04-2018 at 08:42 PM.

  8. #97
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    Quote by Anderson View Post
    "abbr.of " Chef d. Ausbiltungs-Wesen" because that was Luftwaffe department."

    Except you have misquoted the post. I went and found that post on another forum that raised the story about what Ch.A.W. might mean and the .22 training mausers.
    What the poster you quote actually said was that the marks on kar 98 rifles are believed to mean "Chef d. Ausbiltung- Wesen" and that meant the "ranking officer in charge of SA training." In fact Luftwaffe was not mentioned.
    Well you better read this article
    Chef in this cases means Department.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera...egerausbildung

    i quote:
    General der Fliegerausbildung (Gen.d.Fl.Ausb.) war eine Dienststelle und Amtsbezeichnung innerhalb der deutschen Luftwaffe bis 1945. Sie ging am 27. Juli 1943 durch Umbenennung aus der Dienststelle „Chef des Ausbildungswesens der Luftwaffe“ (Chef AW) hervor und war im Oberkommando der Luftwaffe (OKL) angesiedelt.

    That my friend IS the abr. Ch. A.W.
    i did not simply copied and paste but looked into.

    Ger

  9. #98

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    Right, here are the translations now.


    1. Excerpt from the Luftwaffe forestry regulations:


    "C. Hirschfänger

    30. For officials ranked Förster der Luftwaffe or higher*: 30 to 35 cm long, strong blade, ivory grip with three gilt acorns on each side. Gilt guard ending in a stag foot, as does the crossguard, which is gilt as well. Black leather scabbard with gilt fittings and matching locket.

    31. For officials ranked up to and including
    Unterförster der Luftwaffe**: The same Hirschfänger, but with a stag-horn grip. Forestry officials who are in the possession of inherited Hirschfängers, Honor Hirschfängers or state-property Hirschfängers are permitted to continue wearing those.

    32. The
    Hirschfänger is to be worn on the left outer side of the tunic from a concealed belt whose carabiner hook is pulled through the slit of the tunic or greatcoat.

    D. Portepee

    33. Officials ranked up to and including
    Unterförster der Luftwaffe wear a dark-green portepee with a small, flat tassel. See illustration on page 23 on how the knot is to be tied. Those authorized to do so wear the Luftwaffe porteppe (officers' portepee).

    34. From
    Förster der Luftwaffe upwards, the Luftwaffe portepee is worn. Tied in the same way as with the Luftwaffe dagger.

    35. Portepee for forestry employees see number 70,2.
    "


    *) i.e. officials of the gehobener Dienst [elevated career], equivalent to officers
    **) i.e. officials of the mittlerer Dienst [medium-level career], equivalent to enlisted men



    2. Excerpt from the civilian forestry regulations:


    "4. Hirschfänger

    a) For officials from Revierförsteranwärter or higher* (with the exception of the candidates for the höherer Forstdienst**);
    30 to 35 cm long, strong blade, ivory grip with three gold-colored acorns on each side. Gold-colored guard ending in a stag foot, as does the crossguard, which is gold-colored as well. Black leather scabbard with gold-colored fittings and matching locket.

    b) Officials ranked up to and including
    Oberforstwart and Forstaufseher***: The same Hirschfänger, but with a stag-horn grip.

    c) Candidates of the
    höherer Forstdienst and forestry trainees including forestry students wear a Standhauer instead of the Hirschfänger.

    d) Forestry officials who are in the possession of inherited Hirschfängers, Honor Hirschfängers or state-property Hirschfängers are permitted to continue wearing those.

    e) The
    Hirschfänger or Standhauer is to be worn on the left outer side of the tunic from a concealed belt whose carabiner hook is pulled through the slit of the tunic or greatcoat."


    *) i.e. candidates and officials of the gehobener Dienst [elevated career]
    **) the high-grade forestry career
    ***) i.e. officials of the einfacher Dienst [low-level career] and mittlerer Dienst [medium-level career]



    3. Last scan (don't know from which regulations):


    "I. General

    1. The duty agencies in charge are to ensure with particular care and all strictness that the rules of these regulations are precisely adhered to.
    Unauthorized changes to the regulation service dress in terms of color, cut or style are prohibited.
    The new uniforms impose the obligation for particular care in the adherence to the uniform- and wearing regulations. Every superior is obliged to pay attention to proper uniforms being worn."


    By the way: The text from the Wheeler book in post # 20 about forestry officials is brief, but full of errors. (Civilian forestry officials did not wear sleeve eagles; only the FSK did. Forest service rank insignia were not identical to Luftwaffe ones with only the wings/pips replaced by acorns; there were many differences. Forestry officials were never designated as "Unteroffiziere mit Portepee"; this term was only used for military NCOs, etc. etc.)
    Last edited by HPL2008; 01-04-2018 at 10:29 PM.

  10. #99

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    Gangbuster Translation ....Thankyou Andreas as always showing a clear path answering hard questions in these difficult areas.

    Best Regards Larry

    Luftwaffe forestry knife Waffen-Loesche Ch. A. W.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  11. #100
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    I also found this post on the Gentleman's forum GMIC.CO.UK
    This dagger bears the Alex Coppel logo, and he stated that it also has the Ch.A.W. marking AND a luft acceptance stamp on the tang.
    Well having the Alex Coppel logo and the Ch.A.W. makes it impossible that the abbr. stands for Arthur Wingen.
    There is also mentioned an Eickhorn marked one.

    To me its getting clearer that Ch. A.W. most likely is the Luftwaffe department marking of "Chef des Ausbildungs Wesen"
    Best
    Ger
    Luftwaffe forestry knife Waffen-Loesche Ch. A. W.

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