Great to have the "Ch.d'.A" mark image finally Fred. This supposed connection to the "Ch.A.W." found on the Waffen-Loesche knives is looking very shaky. Someone saw that mark in Law's book and thought it looked like the mark on the W-L knife. Now we know it doesn't.
From thread #130 ..." But with a generic plain block style character, even in that era, it might be an 'off the shelf' item that could be more easily acquired at a lower cost in order to make a batch of knives. With the question being does the period product line from Arthur Wingen have a precedent for doing something like that? Best Regards, Fred."
If I am correct in understanding your point Fred, I think you are suggesting Chromolit might not mind if their trademark "ch" was rendered or stamped in style inconsistant with their trademark. I think this would be very unlikely knowing the lengths manufacturer go to protect trademarks and ensure third parties display them correctly. I can see no reason why Chromolit, if they are the manufacturer of the Waffen-Loesche knife, would not be able to stamp a small "ch" on the ricasso. If fact I would think it would be unthinkable to do it as "Ch" or "CH" is neither a protected or a recognised logo of Chromolit.
##Thanks Fred for posting that Ch. d.A. marking and clear to see it has a capital C and a normal h making that a Ch.
Looking at the Arthur Wingen trademark its different, and as Anderson i dont think a company disbandoned its traders Logo that easy.
In fact it would only be logical when the SA logo would have in that case also the A.W. addition which it clearly didn't.
##Anderson are you slowly abandon the common idea that Ch.A.W. isnt in fact a Chro,olit Wingen trademark but could very well have a different meaning?
I think looking in the same "general"direction as the Ch.d.A.marking is the right way., but that gives us 3 different departments as these Chef des Ausbildungswesens can be found SA, Luftwaffe and Army related.....
Ger
##BTW Anderson i already posted that 692 knife on post #28
i quote:
Many of them have arsenal numbers on the guard or on the ricasso, when they are on the guard they almost al have different numbers on both sides of the guards, making that departement and weapons numbers? Who can tell?
Numbers are up in the high 3 digits, making this a large organisations unit?
I'm tending towards believing most of the traditional assumptions made about these knives are in error. And I think we should also be thinking "outside the square" for other possible meanings to the marks and numbers. And also other possible end users.
That wasn't really my point because with some items that were made for some governmental customers (for example with the service bayonets) and always to the maker, not a distributor, where the maker might use a commercial style logo that could have a stylized or decorative aspect. (Some makers also doing a certain amount of modifying their commercial trademarks from time to time.) But with the German Army contracts (after the number codes) it was the block style letters sometimes having abbreviations and/or initials which was traditional (then followed by the letter codes). All of which were presumably being legally protected.by Anderson
My point instead being that because the "WAFFEN-LOESCHE/BERLIN" used all capital letters they may have decided to use a different TM that was closer in style to the one that the distributor wanted and used. Block style letters most likely also having the added benefit of being easier to find and less expensive than a custom made stamp or stamps. That said, when the late Anthony Carter was writing his book on German makers he made a number of trips to Solingen to obtain his source material, and with the second volume he was going to add a section for the corrections and updates that were provided him. With his very unfortunate and untimely passing the fate of the unfinished 2nd volume was uncertain. But after a long hiatus we are indeed fortunate that it did get finished as one combined volume and was published. But I know to an absolute certainty that some unknown TM's (and information) that was sent to him is not in the book that is currently available. Best Regards, Fred
Something more to consider from a German collector: FörsterBerlin
well he is in the proper area
i quote him on a similar thread about Waffen-Loesche knives;
Hi,
this bayonet/ dagger is not Luftwaffe Forestry, but for Forstschutzkommando. Probably the dress version for walking out dress.
This unit was recruited from woodworkers and forestry officials (on volunteer basis) to "protect" the forests in Generalgouvernement Poland.
Goering raised this unit, but it has not much to do with Luftwaffe. They got some items like tunics and belts, but insignia and ranks were a crude mixture of forestry and SS.
As they were armed with normal K98 carabines they had the matching bayonet. They wre involved in partisan fighting and in the expulsion of polish inhabitants in "Reichsforst" territories.
In no LW-forestry dress regulation is this dagger/bayonet mentioned - as it is not LW-forestry.
Best
Stef
[QUOTE=Tomaz;1808511] As these marked knives are i believe mostly unsharpened then they were likely used for dress purposes in front of some "big wig" and not for patrolling the forests.
Maybe i wasn't too far off the mark.
Sometimes people get too tied up in rules and regulations, there was a lot more going on and i would bet everything was not always done by the book. JMO.
Best Tomaz.
There is one just been put up for sale on theoldbrigade.co.uk, like Ger's it has no numbers but it does have the H on the spine of the blade and a brown frog. The dealer says "Herman Goring formed a forestry service to manage Luftwaffe forestry reserves close to air force installations and also his own hunting estates such as Carenhall and it is believed these rare sidearms were carried by the members of this very small elite forestry organisation". Could the Ch be for Carenhall? Hope this helps.
Tomaz
Last edited by Tomaz; 01-09-2018 at 06:35 PM.
Regarding some recent developments in the topic we now have Carinhall near Berlin, Austrian estates, and the forests of Poland (and now can better understand why there were so many rabbit holes to be explored). Much more intriguing to me were a couple of recent images that Anderson posted where the stylized lower case “ch” as seen in the Arthur Wingen literature - contrasted with an SA dagger that also had “CHROMOLIT" over “SOLINGEN” in all upper case letters with what I might argue is a set of dual TM’s on the same item. So which one took precedence or were they equal?
We’ve also had three possible candidates “tossed into the ring” to possibly see who might emerge victorious using the suggested Chef des Ausbildungswesens approach based on the rifle markings. Which is probably going to have some problems because the political factions such as the SA did not have a central authority for arms, and were reported as using the “back door” of the factory with their orders for rifles. Being reported as coming from individual group SA leaders - that if still active would have come to screeching halt with the purge.
The German Army itself also not very likely because it already had its own long standing arms internal procurement organization - with the “Ch.d.A” reported as a deception intended to fool Allied inspectors not as a German Army practice. And the German Army reported as cutting off the supply of rifles by ordering all of Mauser’s output.
Likewise the Luftwaffe was in the aircraft business, with its Infantry type arms acquired via the Army with some minor time sensitive exceptions that have no discernible link to its own Chef des Ausbildungswesens. Other known unique to the Luftwaffe items having the Luftwaffe type acceptance markings. (Coppel and a knife with Luftwaffe markings etc. have been claimed, but as yet no visual evidence of same.) So what’s next? Best Regards, Fred
Last edited by Frogprince; 01-09-2018 at 09:35 PM. Reason: typo corrected
As Fred so vividly puts it, "so many rabbit holes.."
A few points so we are not going down old holes. The Forstschutzkommando I brought up as a possible user of the W-L knife back in Post#25. Then Wim Saris nicely filled in detail and photos in Post #78. This is a possibility, not for a duty sidearm, as they were issued the k98 rifle & bayonet , but some sort of "walking out" side arm.
But as yet this is again speculation.
The intriquing and potentially important Alex.Coppel hunting knife that looks very similar to the W-L knife. See my Post# 32 and Ger's more recent posts about this knife. It is claimed (again no evidence yet) that this knife has both Alex.Coppel marks and "Ch.A.W. and is numbered and if that wasn't enough, a claim there are Luftwaffe marks on it. (I'm surprised this isn't an etched message from Goring!) , but seriously, if true we need this knife to emerge as it will prove the "Ch.A.W." is not related to the Chromolit company and prove a Luftwaffe connection. But until we see the photos, it also is just speculation and heresay. Keep on it Ger.
I believe the theory that the "Ch.A.W." is related to Chef des Ausbildung-wesen (SA,Luft, Heer, or independant, take your pick) is looking very unlikely now. As Fred's post of the actual marks on the training Mausers was very different, and the reason a training inspectorate would even mark a hunting knife or "parade side arm" is even less convincing.
Unexplored rabbit holes. This is where I think we should now focus on rather than revisiting old trails. What possible other explanations could their be for the marks on the W-L knife? I think Tomaz is on the right sort of path when he suggests the "Ch" may have a geographical meaning. It may designate a place or region. A little bit of the lateral thinking is needed now as we have already explored the obvious meanings and really found no evidence to support them.
Who would number a expensive type of hunting knife? This question has puzzled me. Why buy an clearly top of the line knife and issue it to 700 or more forest guards, when something cheaper with bakelite grips and nickle plated blade would do? Who would do that?
Other rabbit holes...What about dress side arms for a Rifle Club, a Hunting Club or a school or university club? There are still many more stones to turn Gentlemen.
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