-
-
10-12-2023 03:17 PM
# ADS
Circuit advertisement
-
-
-
-
Time to time we see these tunics with heer shoulder boards.
Here is SS medical tunic with heer shoulder board. I had opportunity to buy it, but didn't have the cash then... Oh... Maybe some other day I will have opportunity again.
Gredit N.C. Wyeth WAF
-
Hopefully nobody here is suggesting that the Ordensburg tunic with the black cuff title and the Wehrmacht shoulder boards is unmessed with!
Very, very few people put in the amount of effort to study the minutiae that we do, not even museum curators.
This is obviously a Frankenstein tunic that some ill-informed employee chose to fill the museum space with.
There are countless examples of brownshirts, tunics, or wraps where ignorant meddlers tack on random, unrelated medals or patches, thats all this is.
Most people outside the hobby don't know better, or care to know better.
We should not read anything into the composition of disparate insignia on this example.
It seems obvious to me the tunic was at one time stripped of all original insignia, and given that original Ordensburg shoulder boards and cuff titles are rather uncommon, someone attempted a quick "restoration" with the rather common black and easily accessible cuff title, and a pair of random shoulder boards that had the Ordensburg yellow in common to try and bring it all together.
Most non-collecting visitors to the museum are none the wiser, and the museum now features "interesting" items that justify the admission price.
-
by
TxGauleiter
Hopefully nobody here is suggesting that the Ordensburg tunic with the black cuff title and the Wehrmacht shoulder boards is unmessed with!
Very, very few people put in the amount of effort to study the minutiae that we do, not even museum curators.
This is obviously a Frankenstein tunic that some ill-informed employee chose to fill the museum space with.
There are countless examples of brownshirts, tunics, or wraps where ignorant meddlers tack on random, unrelated medals or patches, thats all this is.
Most people outside the hobby don't know better, or care to know better.
We should not read anything into the composition of disparate insignia on this example.
It seems obvious to me the tunic was at one time stripped of all original insignia, and given that original Ordensburg shoulder boards and cuff titles are rather uncommon, someone attempted a quick "restoration" with the rather common black and easily accessible cuff title, and a pair of random shoulder boards that had the Ordensburg yellow in common to try and bring it all together.
Most non-collecting visitors to the museum are none the wiser, and the museum now features "interesting" items that justify the admission price.
I agree that the shoulder boards are very unusual and it's really not that absurd to suspect they were added postwar. As for the cufftitle, I'm not so sure. The topic of Ordensburgen in general and Ordensburgen uniforms in particular is a difficult, barely researched area in TR. This is mainly because there are hardly any historical sources about it. I assume that you have no better sources on this topic than me or anyone else. Unless you have access to American, British and Russian secret archives, where tons of unpublished documents on the subject of TR are known to be kept under lock and key, which could potentially shed light on this topic as well. What supports your thesis is that the shoulder boards are not Ordensburgen shoulder boards. That is clear. What is unclear, however, is what type of uniform these black cufftitles were worn with. I am not aware of any other photo that shows a uniform with this kind of cufftitle. No period photo either. There are people who say that these cufftitles were never worn or are even all fakes.
The truth is, we don't know because there are no examples to study at all. And speaking of studying; It is common practice in German museums, especially in such important ones as the German Historical Museum in Berlin, for the curators to have completed a history degree. To portray these people as ignorant idiots per se seems exaggerated to me. If this attitude were to be applied to museums as a whole, it would mean that paintings and other art objects would also have to be questioned, because the vast majority of visitors do not have enough knowledge to be able to distinguish an original from a fantasy product anyway.
-
by
NSDAP Sammler
Speaking of studying; It is common practice in German museums, especially in such important ones as the German Historical Museum in Berlin, for the curators to have completed a history degree.
Then perhaps the curators at the German Historical Museum in Berlin can point us to the provision or regulation that supports the black cuff title (and Wehrmacht shoulder boards) as authentic and accurate and original to the tunic.
by
NSDAP Sammler
To portray these people as ignorant idiots per se seems exaggerated to me. If this attitude were to be applied to museums as a whole, it would mean that paintings and other art objects would also have to be questioned, because the vast majority of visitors do not have enough knowledge to be able to distinguish an original from a fantasy product anyway.
I don't believe I suggested that they are ignorant idiots. If I did, that wasn't my intent. But I would stand behind the logic that they certainly aren't (and can't be) subject matter experts at everything.
It is common for museums to use filler items in their exhibits. It is also not unheard of for fakes or reproductions to (mistakenly or otherwise) find their way in.
The circumstantial evidence in the case of the tunic above leaves not a doubt in my mind. My interpretation is that this was once a completely stripped Ordensburg tunic, and somewhere in its travels over the decades was rebuilt with the most convenient cloth accessible at the time.
Whether this was done by the museum or done by a party prior to its donation (or sale) to the museum, and whether it was done to deceive or was an innocent, well-intentioned embellishment matters little. This concoction does absolutely nothing to prove or disprove anything.
It appears you're inclined to believe it its legitimacy, which is certainly your prerogative. This is simply my opinion, and mine is but one opinion in an ocean of opinions.
-
As already stated before, no one can make such precise statements on this topic because there are simply no reliable sources. The curators of the museum in Berlin are faced with the same dilemma as all of us. Furthermore, no one in this museum has claimed that the tunic is a completely authentic period tunic. I never said that either. And again, who wants to know or prove that the cufftitle was sewn on period or not? Can you prove this or the opposite? In any case, I can't do it. My point in the post was simply to show an example, not to provide proof or express an opinion. It is possible that the tunic is a Frankenstein, perhaps purchased from a dubious dealer or perhaps made up by themselves. Maybe the people in the museum know it, or maybe not. However, as long as I have no evidence to the contrary, I cannot seriously doubt at least the authenticity of the cufftitle.
Pair of Ordensburgen Cufftitles
.
Bookmarks