Thoughts on Type 4 Red Star (91605)

**MSUGoGreen** · 10-23-2023, 06:00 PM

Hi all,

I recently got interested in Soviet awards and obtained this Order of the Red Star as one of my first items.
Although the order itself appears to be an original piece, the lighter coloring of the silver around the engraving has me a bit worried.
It’s almost as if the original serial number was removed and another was engraved over it, but no material appears to be missing.
In addition, there are some swirls around the “5” which almost make it look like there was an “8” before, but maybe I’m just overthinking it at this point.
Any way, please let me know what your thoughts are on this one.

All the best,

Fred

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 10-23-2023 06:00 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**MSUGoGreen** · 10-23-2023, 06:05 PM

Here are some pictures of the order in question:

**MSUGoGreen** · 10-23-2023, 06:17 PM

More pictures of the engraving under different lighting:

**Leaftree** · 10-24-2023, 02:32 AM

Your suspicions are correct, you can faintly see the original serial numbers under the lower new number.
Such a shame.

**Marcel Banziger** · 10-24-2023, 04:45 AM

I agree. And imo it is also not a duplicate done by the mint. It does not show the characteristics for a duplicate. Greed ruined another nice original award.

**ericfg** · 10-25-2023, 11:52 AM

Why was this done though? Surely a V4 isn't worth significantly more than a V6, right? In my brief search both the reverse and obverse look like they should slot in to the T4V-4 or -6 group.
Also, the screw threads have been altered, though that's not uncommon as the original, silver screwplate was probably exchanged for it's value.

**Dom** · 10-25-2023, 09:37 PM

Guys ,

Another possibility which exists however, the serial number is re-engraved at the mint (Moscow for this one) which explains the lighter coloring which is quite characteristic.

**Leaftree** · 10-26-2023, 02:16 AM

by Dom

Guys ,

Another possibility which exists however, the serial number is re-engraved at the mint (Moscow for this one) which explains the lighter coloring which is quite characteristic.

Plausible. I don't have the knowledge base to comment on it further.

**Marcel Banziger** · 10-26-2023, 05:04 AM

I would expect a newer type star with re-engraving. The type of engraving also doesn't look like a Mint re-engraved duplicate. But to be certain I will check my book by V.D. Boiko who made a book about duplicates and all the styles of re-engraving and the use of the different type of "D"'s for these duplicates. Just to be certain.

For now I tend to think someone re-engraved to make this star match a certain grouping. I mean, the star characteristics and serial number 'could' be a match, both fall in the 1943 range. Duplicates (Mint re-engraved) awards needed to be approved and were only handed out for very valid reasons. Could someone be awarded a Red Star in 1943 (made in 1942 by MMD - Moskow Mint), lose the award the same year and have a duplicate being approved within the same year, also quick enough to receive a star from the exact same batch? Highly unlikely. Maybe not impossible but I have my doubts.

But I will check my book with all duplicate re-engravings to see if there's a match.