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Flugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions needed

Article about: Dear forum members, take a look at this Flugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen for me please. I would like opinions on it thank you. Hope everyone is keeping safe.

  1. #1

    Default Flugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions needed

    Dear forum members, take a look at this Flugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen for me please. I would like opinions on it thank you. Hope everyone is keeping safe.Flugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions neededFlugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions neededFlugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions neededFlugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions neededFlugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions neededFlugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions neededFlugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions neededFlugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions neededFlugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions needed

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    Circuit advertisement Flugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions needed
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  3. #2
    MAP
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    Alexander,

    As I'm mentioned before, please, help us help you. We need quality photos!

    If the seller will not provide them, then move on and continue looking.

    IMHO this is a fake. According to Sebastian Talbots excellent reference book, Deumer only made one variation of the P/O badge and it is one of the rarest P/O badges out there. The Eagles and wreaths were provided by Juncker (and thus different from the designs of their Pilot only badges).

    Even with the poor quality photos, the example shown does not compare at all for more reasons than I can count, even with parts of the badge covered to hide the Swastika.
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  4. #3

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    Hi there, I got the badge checked out by my local auctioneer. It turns out the badge is an original tombac badge by c.e. juncker but it would originally have been unmarked.

    It’s just that someone’s engraved Deumer on the back at some point in an attempt to increase value. Auctioneer said it’s a superb original WWII badge.

  5. #4

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    If that's the case & it's been postswar tampered with then I wouldn't bother! Only my opinion, Paul

  6. #5
    MAP
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    Great, Please tell me what he said beyond it being a "superb award"? Did he go into any details? Did he tell you what is the variation of this award? J1? J2? J3? J4?

    Would love to hear his thoughts on the section I highlighted below.

    Is he the one selling this award? Or just helping you out? Was he authenticating it based on these same poor and out of focus photos? Or did he have it in hand?


    Flugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions needed
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  7. #6
    ?

    Default

    Hmmmm... What can I say ?
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Flugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen Opinions needed  
    I'd rather be A "RaD Man than a Mad Man "

  8. #7
    MAP
    MAP is offline
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    I said from the beginning this is not an original award. The blue box in my photo above pretty much says it all. While I did not spell it out, it has obvious signs of this being a cast fake.

    I would love to hear what the Auctioneer has to say about this. No offense, but Auctioneers generally know very little about what they are selling. It's not their job. Good Auction houses do contract with experts but most do not.

    That said, I'm always happy to be proven wrong. So I reached out to a well known expert to confirm my suspicions. The feedback is pretty much what has been said above but with some added details. (Eagle is trying to be a Juncker, but has the hallmarks of being cast. Furthermore, the wreath is not a Juncker or a Deumer and the hardware is incorrect as well.

    So just my views. Your call as to whether you believe the Auctioneer or the feedback you have received here. All we can do is provide you with our opinions.
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  9. #8

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    MAPS, of course I can believe you.

    The problem with badges like this is there’s very few actually in it which are the genuine article. This was listed as an original by quite a well known auction house.

    I don’t think it’s as bad as you make out. In my opinion it’s an upgrade on some of the very poor reproductions outfits such as Lockdales sell every couple of weeks over & over again.

    At the moment I’m focusing on gutting my entire collection of anything that even has a hint of being a reproduction. It’s not a nice process because I can see clearly the early mistakes I made.

    All came about by believing Auctioneer’s word “original” in catalogues in UK auction houses or essentially buying blind with no pictures of the back. I need help to figure out if any of my war badges are correct.

    It’s the main area I really struggle in, all my iron crosses are 3 part construction, fully magnetic, maker marked. All my caps & helmets have the correct makers logos & markings.

    These war badge things are what are threatening to put my entire collection into negative equity because they’re so tricky.

    And I’ve looked people in the eye, they said it’s the right one & guess what? They lied. These things make it easy for them though because very few know as there are so many variations. It’s a bitter pill to swallow MAPS mate, that auctioneer who I got the opinion of is a family friend & I think it was more a case of him willing it to be the right one.

  10. #9
    MAP
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    We've all been there. I too have a draw full of very expensive fakes and like you, I posted them here one by one only to hear the same news.

    While we can't magically make them originals, we can help you prevent future mistakes. Since joining this forum I have not bought a single fake

    Rule # 1 is to always post an item before you buy it. No exceptions.

    Rule #2 is to always follow rule #1.

    Rule #3 is to study, read threads and study more. Always study before posting and give your opinions. You might be wrong, but it really helps with the learning

    Rule #4 - (for me at least) is to buy high quality reference books. They are not cheap but the cost is offset the first time you avoid buying a fake.

    Rule #5 - we need good photos.
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

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