17-pr A/T : Wittmann's Nemesis (?)

[Martin Bull]

Here's my puchase from yesterday's Military Odyssey show at Detling - the 17pr A/T ( on the right ).

OK,OK - maybe it's not the actual shell that knocked out Tiger 007 ; I couldn't find the COA......

And of course the projectile has been fired so this isn't the most beautiful example.

BUT - it's taken me quite a while to find one ( and the case is dated 1944 ). The armoured campaign in Normandy has always fascinated me and I'm an unashamed Wittmann enthusiast. And yes, now it's not even agreed that Wittmann was killed by one of these, but that's a debate to be held elsewhere.

The two shells in the pic are the undisputed kings of the Normandy armoured battlefield - 88mm PaK36 to the left, 17pr on the right. I've long ( very long ! ) wanted examples of both in my collection, and seeing the 17-pr on the AKM stall yesterday pushed me over the edge.




One thing for sure, they're both big and heavy. It's quite something to imagine these weapons going head-to-head down the High Street in Villers-Bocage.......

[CINDERSII]

This one took it up an even higher notch the main gun rounds between the Panzer MkVI (TigerI) and the King Tiger (Tiger II) were not interchangeble which was a bit of a logistical nightmare having 2 MBT's with differing main gun ammunition.

Konigstiger (King Tiger). At seventy-five tons, it was bigger than its predecessor. Its longer-barreled (and thus higher velocity) KwK 43 88-millimeter cannon could penetrate five inches of armor at a range of two kilometers (1.2 miles).

Considering that Fire Fly's were only on an rough allocation of one per troop where as they had to face in the MBTs of the Germans the Panther with its HV 75mm Gun the 2 Tigers both having 88mm guns one just a bit better than the other with the 88mm DP gun thrown in for good measure no wonder it was a hard slog for the Allied tanks. Like allot said if you see Tigers just call in the Typhoons.
A trick the Thunderbolt pilots taught themselves was to fire from behind the Tigers just short so the 50 cal A.P etc rounds bounced and deflected up underneath the tank through the thinner floor armour a few dozen 50 cal projies whistling around the interior of the tank would certainly spoil the crews day.

This book tells it pretty much how it was for the guys in the Sherman Tanks its a good read.

[MilitariaOne]

This one took it up an even higher notch the main gun rounds between the Panzer MkVI (TigerI) and the King Tiger (Tiger II) were not interchangeble which was a bit of a logistical nightmare having 2 MBT's with differing main gun ammunition.

Konigstiger (King Tiger). At seventy-five tons, it was bigger than its predecessor. Its longer-barreled (and thus higher velocity) KwK 43 88-millimeter cannon could penetrate five inches of armor at a range of two kilometers (1.2 miles).

Considering that Fire Fly's were only on an rough allocation of one per troop where as they had to face in the MBTs of the Germans the Panther with its HV 75mm Gun the 2 Tigers both having 88mm guns one just a bit better than the other with the 88mm DP gun thrown in for good measure no wonder it was a hard slog for the Allied tanks. Like allot said if you see Tigers just call in the Typhoons.
A trick the Thunderbolt pilots taught themselves was to fire from behind the Tigers just short so the 50 cal A.P etc rounds bounced and deflected up underneath the tank through the thinner floor armour a few dozen 50 cal projies whistling around the interior of the tank would certainly spoil the crews day.

This book tells it pretty much how it was for the guys in the Sherman Tanks its a good read.

Greetings,

Years ago, I read Death Traps and I agree it is an excellent read. However, it is written from the perspective of a US Ordnance Officer who was in a unit, which (daily) had to recover/repair destroyed American Tanks in Europe. Because of that perspective, all the officer ever saw were destroyed US tanks, which creates a bit of a confirmation bias. If you desire a more factual and I would argue more scholarly account of Shermans I would recommend this easy to watch video YouTube Death Traps is an enjoyable read, but misses on so many levels factually.

Excellent shells by the way:-)

Best,

V/r Lance

[4md]

The 17 pounder is a beast, certainly on my wish list. cases are very hard to find in these parts and when they come up for sale they are very expensive

[Martin Bull]

A Dutch dealer at Detling yesterday was selling 1944-dated cases for £35 each. I've very rarely seen any of these for sale before, and for sure not as cheap as that.

[CINDERSII]

The next generation up from the 17Pdr my 20Pdr smoke from a Centurian next to a 90mm WWII A/T case

Weapon 20 pdr 20 pdr Mk I
Type of Ammunition APDS Mk I APCBC APDS Mk 3
Velocity (ft/sec) 3,346 4,692
30 30
Armor Penetration (mm)
500 yards 7.72" 11.61"
1000 yards 7.2" 10.91"
1500 yards 6.65" 10.24"
2000 yards 6.14" 9.57"

Table got screwed up but you get an idea of the velocity of the MkI 4,692fps is fairly hooking the 20pdr in turn led to that great tank gun the L7 105mm

From my shelves also I take the info on the Shermans from the other side of the fence from the operators of a German MBT that encountered them.

[4md]

nice smoke, 20 pounder is definitely somthing on my wish list as well

[Anderson]

There were Fire Fly's still seeing action in Lebanon as late as the 1980's.

[CINDERSII]

My newest purchase for my library another book for my collection by Schneider Volume III of his Tigers in combat series (I have Vol I & II) this one is packed with 1200 pictures, plans & drawings on the Tiger and procedures in detail that the crews performed I am looking forward to it.

[CINDERSII]

Sort of along the same vein from my collection a 105mm HEAT prac round & Steel case from a Australian Leopard 1 MBT the 303 cartridge in front of the projectile gives you an idea of the size has a nylon type driving band.