HELP WITH AN SS AWARD Document

[sailorjerry]

can any one direct me to somesite or can help me ID the signature on this paper, i did find a few names but nothing to match what looks like VO???? obersturmbannfuhrer/kmd any help most appreciated....thank you

[Justin P]

Hi

Could you post Close up Scans/Photo of Signature and Stamp. I'm a little suspicious of this Document, saying that I'm not SS Document Collector so therefore I could be wrong.

[Adrian Stevenson]

I too am skeptical. I would expect his unit to be listed in more detail, ie Kompanie, etc and not just the Div.

Given the relatively high rank of who is supposed to have signed the doc, it should be possible to research who served in the LAH with this rank and within this timeframe.

Cheers, Ade.

[don_kihotis7]

Hi guys, if i could ask something here, who is the right person to sign an award? Let me explain better.
I was searching a doc to see if the name of the general who signed it was correct. I had found the history of that division and there were 3-4 generals who were commanders through time.
So let's say that Mr X was fighting and in January 1941 had done an act of gallantry and it was decided to be awarded with an EKII. Furthermore the documentations are ready and printed in May 1941 but in the meantime there had been a change of the commanders and another general came to take his place.
Who is going to sign the award doc to our fellow brave man? The one who was in command in Jan 1941 were the act of gallantry took place or the 2nd commander who was in charge in May 1941, when the documentation were ready?

[hucks216]

The document is a poor fake I'm afraid. In addition with what has already been mentioned above, the stamp says (xxxx) Regiment 3: - Panzer Grenadier Rgt 3 belonged to the 2 SS Division Das Reich and bore the title 'Deutschland', while if it is Panzer Rgt 3 then that would be 3 SS Division Totenkopf. And while it could of been possible for a sub-unit from one division to be loaned to another to strengthen for a specific attack/defense the final nail is that the signature is a poor attempt to just sign any type of signature without knowledge of who was in command of the authorising unit.

[hucks216]

So let's say that Mr X was fighting and in January 1941 had done an act of gallantry and it was decided to be awarded with an EKII. Furthermore the documentations are ready and printed in May 1941 but in the meantime there had been a change of the commanders and another general came to take his place.
Who is going to sign the award doc to our fellow brave man? The one who was in command in Jan 1941 were the act of gallantry took place or the 2nd commander who was in charge in May 1941, when the documentation were ready?

This is one of those questions where the answer should be straight forward but there are so many exceptions that it does get abit confusing or cloudy, but I will stick to the 'official' answer as much as I can. Taking an EK citation to a member of the Heer as an example - these would of been signed by the Divisional Commander (at the time the citation needed to be signed) or higher (Armeekorps/Wehrkreis/Armee/Armeegruppe Commanders) as those levels of command held the authority - for the sake of simplicity when I say Division from now, take it to also apply to the higher commands as well. If the awarding was made between one commander leaving and another arriving then it would of been signed by whoever commanded the division on a temporary basis, as sometimes there could be a gap of a month or two between the official appointments taking place. In this case the signer would put the following before his signature or rank: M.d.F.B (= mit der Fuhrung beauftragt which means ‘authorised to command’/‘commissioned to take charge’/‘Temporary charged with leadership’), m.d.W.d.G.b. (= mit der Wahrnehmung der Gesschafte beauftragt which means ‘Temporary charged with affairs’) or Stellv (= Stellvertreter which means ‘deputy’ in the sense that the officer is a stand-in until someone is appointed to the position as opposed to being the 2nd In Command).
Then there is the case of the divisional commander delegating his authority to sign such citations, maybe to an Adjutant or Chief Of Staff in which case whoever signed it would put i.v. (= In Vertretung which basically means 'on behalf of') next to his signature. Sometimes it has a J instead of an I, so would look like J.V. but is the same thing. And sometimes instead of using such delegating signatures they would just use a stamped version of the Divisional Cdr's signature.
But, as mentioned, there are always exceptions to the rule. The best and most common example is for the Paratroopers on Crete just after the battle in 1941. It is quite common to see EK citations signed by a Battalion Commander, but this is because an issuing authority had yet to be set up and so they were delegated that authority to sign. But by and large, be suspicious of any EK citations signed by anyone below Divisional Cdr, or someone delegated by him.

Award citations for such things as Infantry Assault, Panzer Assault, General Assault Badges would be authorised and signed by anyone from Divisional down to Battalion Commander, and sometimes Company Commanders, or someone signing on behalf of (i.v.) those.
Wound Badge citations would usually be signed by a Battalion Commander or higher (it is rare to see a General's signature on these but it did happen from time to time) and of course these could also be signed by a medical officer at a Lazarett, depending on where the award citation was issued from.

[don_kihotis7]

Thanks a lot Hucks. Very valuable info. I really appreciate your effort to write such a long answer.
Cheers, Chris.

[sailorjerry]

i just wish to say thank you all for the time to help, and for this site, l have not been into collecting for years, and seem i may not even start again due to the amount of fakes....i was suspisous of this myself by not being able to find any info, so again a big thank you for the site and the people who take time to help..regards to all..jerry

[Justin P]

Jerry if you run before your walking, You will get burnt with Documents/ID's You can pick up this Type of Document for little money--None SS) which is were i suggest you start! Anything SS holds a Bigger risk of being Fake! Once you have a Mix of original Documents In your Collection, in hand inspections of new Arrivals becomes a little less stressful. Search the Forum for Books Discussions on this Subject. Good luck!

i just wish to say thank you all for the time to help, and for this site, l have not been into collecting for years, and seem i may not even start again due to the amount of fakes....i was suspisous of this myself by not being able to find any info, so again a big thank you for the site and the people who take time to help..regards to all..jerry

[sailorjerry]

makes sense, thank you, i started collecting german relics in the 50,s when you could knock on any vets door and ask, and usually get something, my father served 1940 to 45, and brought home a lot of things, but always kept it away, never spoke about anything, but i had some very nice items i wish i had now, but id like to gather a few things again, l dont have that feel for things anymore...so the advise will be taken...lm glad i found the site, it is interesting to read through all the posts...regards to all...