Pistols, Rifles, Machine Guns and Crew Served Weapons of Partitioned Poland and the Polish 2nd Republic

[dastier]

Karabin Samopowtarzalny (Kbsp) wz.38M gas system.

Gas port, gas plug, barrel with bayonet lug and muzzle brake:

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Photographs courtesy of the 'Forgotten Weapons' web site.

I'll provide information on how the gas system works once I translate the details from Polish to English. This may take a while as I don't read Polish and am relying on Google Translate with all its imperfections.

[Scout]

Did not mean to offend you Scout but you did say in your post: "nice simplified Browning design."

That is absolutely correct, I did say that....

No offence taken at all - especially as the words 'nice simplified Browning design' in no way mentions or refers to the GP. So how you get GP or High Power from that, I dont know......
Browning was so much more than just the footwork for the excellent GP, the laurels for which must go to Dieudonne Saive. JMB designed MANY firearms and many handguns.

Ahh, but now, I see where you went wrong; You want the Vis to be without ANY Browning influence at all (not just the influence from the GP which emerged at the same time, so kind of difficult for it to be copied) hence you latched unto my remark about Browning (that still does not explain, why you think my words mean the GP. I think you simply mixed something together in your mind).

Hardly the scope of this thread, but we could debate whether or not the Vis has any Browning influence at all.
As I mentioned in another post; at that point in time with the developement of auto handguns, how much variation of existing succesful working patterns can there be. Not doubt the Poles were aware of the 1911 and other JMB designs. Remember, there are MANY JMB pistols made BEFORE fabrication of the Vis commenced.
Of course, they were aware of the brilliant designs existing. They werent dumb - why mess with a good thing.

Just as the GP is a simplified 1911 design, the Vis is likewise....waaaait for it........ "a nice simplified Browning design."

Personally, I dont think, there can be much doubt about that, but maybe that discussion is for another thread.

Again, things were mixed together, as I talked about Browning designs, which in your mind somehow became the GP only.

Just a simple misunderstanding.



Inglis, Canada: GP blueprints were brought to the UK and then to Canada, where the GP was made by Inglis. Saive also left Belgium and worked for the Allies, as the German occupational machine rolled in.

Anyhow, back to other Polish items.

Strange duck, that Wz.38M

[dastier]

Strange duck, that Wz.38M

They say that "necessity is the mother of invention..."

I find it more than interesting, in fact quite amazing, that Poland, a relatively poor country compared to it immediate neighbours and one that had been ravaged by war and stripped of its resources by its conquerors for so long was was on the verge of equipping at least some of its soldiers with wz.38M.

There is no telling if the wz.38M was going to be a boon or a bust or if it was ready for mass production. But consider that at the start of WW2 to the best of my knowledge only the United States and the Soviet Union were fielding semi automatic battle rifles in any quantity: the M1 Garand and the SVT 38.

I believe that the Czechs and Belgians had designs but am not sure if either were in mass production and the Nationalist Chinese were developing a semi auto rifle of their own. The Germans were developing their G41 and G43 rifles and the Swedes had their AG42 but neither were ready in 1939.

[dastier]

Two prewar photos featuring the VIS 35!

Wojsko Polskie sargent with the VIS 35. This was captioned as taken during live fire testing:




2nd Republic President Moscicki being shown the VIS 35 during a visit to the Radom factory:




Next up: something very special and seldom seen! Stay tuned...

[dastier]

Here is my present to all that visit this thread. Merry Christmas, Wesołych Świąt!

First up... Captured German Rifles:

Mauser Gewehr 98 rifle, manufactured in 1916 at the Bavarian Arsenal of Amberg.


Amberg Gew 98 top, Erfurt Kar.98a bottom.






Bavarian Lion proof mark on the receiver.










Note that this Gew 98 still retains its Lange Visier rear sight, even at this late date of Polish refurbishment. (10.34.)
















Note the workshop stamp for Zbrojownia Warszawska, followed by the month and year of the refurbishment. (10.34.)


Photographs courtesy of Military Mausers forum member 'Clay' from Gunboards.com.

[dastier]

Next up...

Mauser Karabiner 98a (sometimes referred to as the Kar.98AZ) manufactured in 1917 at the Prussian Arsenal of Erfurt.


Amberg Gew 98 top, Erfurt Kar.98a bottom.




Bolt handle ball has a small eagle stamp - Polish or Prussian?


I am not sure if the upper eagle stamp shown is a Polish Eagle or a Prussian Eagle. The lower eagle is the Prussian Eagle proof mark. Proofed twice by the Germans?

I believe the 'button' on the bolt stop is a Polish modification. Compare this to a Polish Kbk wz.29 bolt stop. In photos of the Kar.98a in German service, the 'button' is missing.














Note the Kar.98a has a curved stacking rod unlike the squared rods on the Polish Kbk.98.










Sling slot has been filled in and a sling swivel attached behind the wrist ...as well as a sling bar.


Note the workshop stamp for Zbrojownia Warszawska, followed by the month and year of the refurbishment. (6.35.)

Also note that unlike the matching Amberg Gew 98, this Erfurt Kar.98a only matches as follows: stock matches to the receiver, bolt matches to neither but does to itself and magazine floor plate does not match.

Photographs courtesy of Military Mausers forum member 'Clay' from Gunboards.com.

[3mk]

The Lebel 86/93 Rifle
Caliber 8mm
Cartridge 8x50mm
Bolt Action
130 cm in length
Barrel is 80 cm in length

It was used by Polish soldiers in the Haller's Army during the first world war. Many of these soldiers came to Poland with the same equipment to fight in the Polish-Soviet war. Around 40,000 Lebel and Berthier rifles came to Poland from former Blue Army soldiers. The Polish government purchased a further 500,000 Lebel rifles during the Polish-Soviet war. From 1918-1934 it was one of the main rifles in the Polish army until most units were equipped with the wz.29 kb Mauser. From 1934-39 it was mostly used for training and paramilitary organizations. In 1939 Lebel rifles were used by KOP and defense battalions.
Picture credits go to Wielka Encyklopedia Uzbrojenia M.S.Wojsk. 1918 - 1939 and the Polish Military Museum in Warsaw

[dastier]

Thanks Emil.

Can you identify which specific units used the Lebel Model 86/93 rifle and whether any modifications were made to it in Polish service?

Here is a photograph of the 'Procession of the 6th Telegraph Parade Battalion on the streets of Yaroslavl, 1932.'

[dastier]

Continuing with the theme of French Rifles in Polish service...

Berthier Fusil Mle 1907/15, manufactured at Manufacture d'Armes de St Etienne (MAS):













Attachment 445271

Batalionu Telegraficznego soldier equipped with the Mousqueton Berthier Mle 1892/M16:


Note: Fusil=rifle, Mousqueton=carbine.

Photographs of the Fusil Mle 1907/15 courtesy of Military Mausers forum member 'Clay' from Gunboards.com.

[ChrisW01]

Szczęśliwego Nowego Roku (Happy New Year) to everyone here's my contribution to this thread and a respectful nod to Mike as it's been a busy several weeks. Sources are noted on the images.



This IPMS image shows dog handlers armed with what appear to be Karabin Berthier wz.1907/15 rifles.



This image of 52 Pulk Piechoty has soldiers shouldering what look like Karabin Berthier wz.1916 rifles.



This image of the two types for comparison.

Chris.....