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SA Buckle - Odd Prong?

Article about: Hi gents and buckle experts. I'm looking for another "sunwheel" buckle to complete an SA mannequin, and found this one. I like the look of it, but I haven't seen another with a &qu

  1. #1

    Default SA Buckle - Odd Prong?

    Hi gents and buckle experts. I'm looking for another "sunwheel" buckle to complete an SA mannequin, and found this one. I like the look of it, but I haven't seen another with a "tacked-on" brass prong quite like this one. Does it seem unusual, or has anyone seen another example like this one? I'm searching through pictures but haven't seen a match yet.

    Thoughts?

    A million thanks for your help, as always.

    -DF

    SA Buckle - Odd Prong?
    SA Buckle - Odd Prong?
    SA Buckle - Odd Prong?
    SA Buckle - Odd Prong?
    SA Buckle - Odd Prong?
    SA Buckle - Odd Prong?

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  3. #2
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    If you mean the prong bar being brazed to the bar that isn’t unusual eight of my sixty SA/Nskk buckles have this construction. Most of these I believe are early buckles. The later style prong bar was probably cheaper to produce. All my brass Imperial buckles have these brazed prong bars.

  4. #3
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    Hello,
    The prongs/prongs rivet are, as Kirby writes, standard on imperial buckles.

    The imprint of the first roundel in size is still visible on the front of the box.
    The SA roundel appears unclear/spongy/washed out.
    The mounting holes are very (too) small..
    Somehow I don't like the whole thing...

    My impression, you excuse me and hopefully the other members can dispel my doubts..

    Regards
    kabl
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture SA Buckle - Odd Prong?  
    Last edited by kabl; 04-17-2024 at 02:35 PM.

  5. #4
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    Here is my example of a buckle like yours. Several of the more advanced SA buckle collectors liked it and/or have a buckle like it. Basically an early SA without bent "ears" and early type prong bar. I bought this from a German dealer located near the Austrian border.

    Link=> SA Variant

  6. #5
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    Looking closer at the buckle and not just the prongs I don’t care for the buckle. The solder holes are to close to the edge.

  7. #6

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    Quote by kirby View Post
    If you mean the prong bar being brazed to the bar that isn’t unusual eight of my sixty SA/Nskk buckles have this construction. Most of these I believe are early buckles. The later style prong bar was probably cheaper to produce. All my brass Imperial buckles have these brazed prong bars.
    Quote by kabl View Post
    Hello,
    The prongs/prongs rivet are, as Kirby writes, standard on imperial buckles.

    The imprint of the first roundel in size is still visible on the front of the box.
    The SA roundel appears unclear/spongy/washed out.
    The mounting holes are very (too) small..
    Somehow I don't like the whole thing...

    My impression, you excuse me and hopefully the other members can dispel my doubts..

    Regards
    kabl
    Quote by weller View Post
    Here is my example of a buckle like yours. Several of the more advanced SA buckle collectors liked it and/or have a buckle like it. Basically an early SA without bent "ears" and early type prong bar. I bought this from a German dealer located near the Austrian border.

    Link=> SA Variant
    Quote by kirby View Post
    Looking closer at the buckle and not just the prongs I don’t care for the buckle. The solder holes are to close to the edge.
    Thanks for all the great responses, gents.

    This is an interesting buckle, and as Kirby originally stated, the prongs are similar to imperial German buckles. This would make sense if this were a buckle manufactured in the very early days of the NSDAP, but there are some other unusual features here.

    As kabl pointed out, there is what appears to be a worn brass ring around the roundel. This makes me wonder, and crazy question here perhaps, but are there any observations of imperial buckles being "repurposed" and having say, an SA roundel added to an imperial box? It doesn't seem like a practical solution considering the time involved to re-work a buckle, and I would think a newly manufactured buckle would be cheaper to produce, but I could be wrong. It does almost appear to be an imperail box with an SA roundel added though... odd.

    And of course we have the evidence shown by Weller that matches this buckle very well, so this example isn't completely an outlier...

    Thoughts?

    Many thanks for the comments so far - whether the buckle is good or bad, it makes for an interesting conversation!

    -DF

  8. #7
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    Here is a link to another very interesting conversation but with a rather rare Austrian HJ buckle. Same type of prong bar and prong setup. I also have a small DJ with this prong setup.

    Yellow12 (Marcus) liked my buckle, as did another SA collector. I have heard some early buckles were reworked from other buckles.

    I've only seen three of these SA buckles, DerFunker your buckle is the 3rd. I like the buckle. But let us see who else may join in this conversation. Could be interesting.

    Link=> Unmarked Rudolf Schanes. No ears?

  9. #8

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    Quote by weller View Post
    Here is a link to another very interesting conversation but with a rather rare Austrian HJ buckle. Same type of prong bar and prong setup. I also have a small DJ with this prong setup.

    Yellow12 (Marcus) liked my buckle, as did another SA collector. I have heard some early buckles were reworked from other buckles.

    I've only seen three of these SA buckles, DerFunker your buckle is the 3rd. I like the buckle. But let us see who else may join in this conversation. Could be interesting.

    Link=> Unmarked Rudolf Schanes. No ears?
    Interesting information, and thanks for the links you've been posting. I look forward to other opinions, and am really curious about the idea of an imperial buckle being reworked into an SA buckle. It still doesn't seem like a practical process, but if you're a country who is, economically, on its knees, you're not prone to wasting anything. After all, what good was a buckle from the Great War? Maybe reworking a buckle box was indeed a practice... who knows? Good stuff!

  10. #9
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    Hello and thanks,
    Much appreciated and needed information for my notes...
    Early SA buckle, perhaps mades in Austria?
    But why should an imperial German buckle be converted there?
    The box is a development (hybrid) from Shanes - Vienna? Conceivable?!?
    But why the 2 roundel images of the medallion ?
    The mounting holes that are too far out and very small?
    Lots of questions, few answers, it's an interesting/strange/weird buckle indeed...
    Hard to judge...
    Thoughtful greetings
    kabl

  11. #10
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    I contacted a collector friend who is very familiar with SA buckles and collects a lot of early examples. He studies the design, roundels, materials used etc. He also has an example like the SA buckle being discussed here, and like the SA example I provided. He stated these buckles with some unusual characteristics have people that deem them fake, and always will.

    As he stated, "why should anyone be so silly as to create such a fake which has so many easily recognisable, unusual and interesting features?"

    His final comment, "An original and highly unusual SA buckle in my opinion, and understandably, not one for the inexperienced collector or the faint hearted".

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