I moved the previous Eickhorn thread starting now in post # 59 to this ongoing Haco SA dagger thread as the discussion has taken an interesting turn and healthy discussion and is now more focused on the details of a Haco SA dagger than an Eickhorn dagger.
Regards Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!- Larry C
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Hi Rookie thats an interesting question about the inspection stamped number and would put to rest if there was any thoughts about Eickhorn also using Haco guards.....BUT.... Eickhorn inspection stamps were not always seen on Eickhorn SA daggers and there are some found without that inspection stamp. It has been discussed that Eickhorn inspectors assuming this is true stamped the lower guards 1 out of 10 daggers with an inspection number. So it is not always necessary to see an inspection stamp ...but for the collector its just an extra added detail that they enjoy to have on their Eickhorn dagger.by dobson
Now..if it is found out that the Weitze dagger is numbered ...now either with an Eickhorn Inspection stamp ..OR ..a Haco internally marked number..all bets are off and the dagger is parted.
A great discussion Gents..keep it up
Regards Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Below are a few HACOs. Which ones have the "unique signature" upper guard? Which ones would you guess have the AR marked crossguards?
Answer: The one in the middle has the unique signature upper guard, and... wait for it... they are ALL marked AR.
If you look more carefully at dobson's dagger in posts #61 and #69, the upper guard also looks like a "unique signature" guard. Also marked AR.
Two of the three guards in Siegert's book are marked AR. The third one appears to be unmarked. All we have seen so far in this thread are AR marked, or unmarked guards. Some of these AR marked guards are vary faint, so if at first glance they appear unmarked, look at them very closely with a magnifying glass to determine if, in fact, they really are unmarked. Look at my post #57. It looks like it is unmarked, but the R can be seen between the numbers 1 and 9. The A can barely be seen, but is there. Could it be that some of these unmarked guards are actually AR and the letters had slowly worn off the mold?.
As for the lower guards on my daggers, all three grips are tight and won't break free. I think they are literally glued to the guard due to the application of the lacquer to the grip. That is unfortunate for this discussion, but I think we can assume that if the upper guards on these three HACOs are marked AR, then the lower guards are also marked AR and not K.
I submit to you that AR marked HACO guards are not "secondary", but are in fact the most commonly seen, and appear on all styles of HACO guards including the thin ones with the "unique signature". Unmarked guards would be next, IMO.
There seems to be an assumption that the HACOs with the thin guards were first production, and anything else came later. If you believe that the internal numbers represent the chronological assembly, then this assumption is not borne out by the numbers. Larry's guards are numbered 2086 and are the thin style, but in post #53 we see an example with the number 461 which is not the thin style.
My dagger in the middle has no internal number on the upper guard. This dagger is as pristine as the driven snow (at least it was until I opened it up) so I reject the idea that all HACO's are numbered, or if it has no number it has been "tuned-up". In fact, if you believe the internal numbers represent consecutive order of assembly, then there are conflicting ideas of how many HACOs were made. Siegert states 12,000 made (I don't know about Fisher) yet the highest internal number I have seen is 3464 (post #28 of this thread). Mark (kingtiger) owned 14 HACOs and studied them for 20 years and was surprised that even 4 digit numbers existed, let alone 5 digit numbers. If there were 12,000 HACOs made why do we not see that represented by higher internal numbers? Even if the actual number was half of what Siegert states we don't see anything close to the number 6000. Not one dagger. That supports the idea that there are many more unnumbered HACO guards than previously thought. Unless, of course, you believe they only made 3464 daggers.
Last edited by SkylineDrive; 04-02-2024 at 01:44 AM.
Good call Larry to move discussion.
In this old thread here. I see some of the so called secondary Haco fittings marked with cast A-R or same style fittings with shorter length lower crossguard and slightly thicker upper guards. There is also what I thik, could be a mix of the two types in this thread, K guard bottom and what looks like A-R top crossguard.
If Haco distributed 12.000 pcs total, and mixed suppliers of fittings, blades, grips etc. I would think its highly possible that there will be different styles of Haco daggers. Perhaps common to all Haco would be the the ink writings inside the fittings and bottom of grip. But what does theese numbers mean ? I dont know, perhaps some kind of serial/batch number. The A-R opend daggers I have seen, has low numbers.
I can say that my A-R Haco has the most perfect fit between grip and crossguards and with scabbard as well, it sides in like glove. There is no tolerances at all.
I hope some more forum collectors will chip in, on this good discussion, and supply with internal markings and styles, especially from A-R style daggers.
Here is one beautiful dagger I like from another forum with same A-R attributes on guards:
Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
Best
WOW Skyline. You did some homework ! Good points and well documented. We posted almost at the same time :-)
@Skyline. Bonus info ! I think no glue. Its the fit between the tang and inside of grip that is so tight, making it almost impossible to break free (and this is a fact) !
Best
That dagger is now my dagger and is the one on the right above.
dobson... I did not literally mean "glue". These grips were heavily lacquered and if it was wet or tacky when assembled then when it dried it would act as glue would.
OK ! Congrats ! Thats a beauty.
I had to make a Georg Gearless tool with a vise, to press tang out from grip gentely. These two parts are like 100 % fitted together. Its not the lacquer that recisted on my Haco.
Best
Last edited by dobson; 04-01-2024 at 09:36 PM.
Well you're a braver man than I am. Not going to force these beauties and run the risk of damage.
In Fishers it is noted that K and AR guards were used
The occurrence in sightings are 12 daggers sighted per 1000 produced ( 12/1000 ) ...it is assumed 12000 were produced ...that was data from 2002
Revised data from 2012 states only 7000 were produced. ( 7/1000 ).
So within these guards the daggers found were not just limited to Berlin ...which seems to be what we have all observed with the Gruppe mark B stamping ...but another SA gruppe Franken "Fr" has been observed
A question that needs to be asked is why that some were internally numbered and others were not?
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Hi Rookie thats an interesting question about the inspection stamped number and would put to rest if there was any thoughts about Eickhorn also using Haco guards.....BUT.... Eickhorn inspection stamps were not always seen on Eickhorn SA daggers and there are some found without that inspection stamp. It has been discussed that Eickhorn inspectors assuming this is true stamped the lower guards 1 out of 10 daggers with an inspection number. So it is not always necessary to see an inspection stamp ...but for the collector its just an extra added detail that they enjoy to have on their Eickhorn dagger.
Now..if it is found out that the Weitze dagger is numbered ...now either with an Eickhorn Inspection stamp ..OR ..a Haco internally marked number..all bets are off and the dagger is parted.
A great discussion Gents..keep it up
Regards Larry
@Larry,
Ive fiddle something around with an image to make it more sharper.
Doesn't looks that it have been stamped.
i have asked Weitze for some more pictures.
Cheers.
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