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Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

Article about: Hi all! I just received this SA dagger, which has a personalized blade and am wondering if anyone has reference material that could trace these details in order to provide me with more infor

  1. #1
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    Default Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Hi all!

    I just received this SA dagger, which has a personalized blade and am wondering if anyone has reference material that could trace these details in order to provide me with more information related to the person. The photo should be detailed enough to see all of the engraved information, but if not I can certainly post the content. Looking forward to feedback.

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Thanks!
    Dzyner
    Last edited by Larry C; 06-13-2017 at 12:46 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Ronneburg is in the city of Thuringia where some of the Suhl producers come from...quite odd that the SA man was stationed in Thuringia until 1936 and Manheim until 1939...how did he end up with a Berlin designated dagger?

    What is the Gruppe Mark on this ? Is there traces of this being a Ground Rohm?

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  4. #3
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    Quote by Larry C View Post
    What is the Gruppe Mark on this ? Is there traces of this being a Ground Rohm?
    Thanks for the feedback Larry. Here is a photo of the guard. The Gruppe Mark is "B".

    Does the engraving at least look period done? I'm including a couple more photos showing more detail of the engraving. Also, how do the parts of this dagger look overall - all consistent with HACO? I noticed upon closer inspection that the blade shoulder fit to the lower guard isn't as tight as some producers, but then I know not all producers were as diligent at fitting their blade water tight to the guard. I added a few more photos below.

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

  5. #4

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    Cross guard has been spun around facing the front.

    Gruppe B ..Berlin designation puts this dagger in Berlin ...the rest of the info according to this SA manns history starting in 1931-39 puts him in Thuringia and then Manheim.

    A closer look at the SA standarte number 2/153 has signs of a dremel swirl as there are a few points of concern also on the rest of the inscription.

    I do thankyou Darren for the close up photos

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    The dagger is Haco and a little curious of the grip eagle but Im not going to set my focus on that...the issue at hand which is ........

    1. How did this SA mann get a Berlin designated dagger while being stationed elsewhere
    or
    2. The person with the dremel did not do his Berlin SA homework ..nor did he study the details itself including the obvious Gruppe mark B

    I would wait for a few more comments on the inscription application ...but being in 2 places at once seems to be impossible..when the SA mann has no proven history of being in Berlin except proof on the blade of his early to late SA career .

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  6. #5
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    Thanks again for the opinion points Larry!

    An observation of my own regarding your reference to a "dremel" tool being used (#2 in your previous comment). I'm relatively certain that most any rotary engraving tool (including period jewelers engravers) would make similar swirl patterns, so I hesitate to label this as a "dremel" tool produced engraving.

    I'm attaching below a better shot of the eagle so you can properly asses that as well since you noted concerns with it. I'll include a shot of the SA roundel for good measure.

    I'd love to hear from other SA experts about the possibility that this dagger and the engraving are ok, even though the engraving doesn't specifically note Berlin as one of the locations of this SA mann. Seems odd that someone would go through the trouble of applying such a carefully and skillfully applied rotary engraving onto a dagger for a marginal increase in value. Then again, I've seen quite a lot of odd, unexplainable things in this hobby.

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

  7. #6
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    Ok here are my 2 cents

    a dedication would most likely be etched and not tooled.
    The tool markings found on period onces that can easily be compared are the NPEA daggers.
    Each letter will show the starting point with a kind of dot, i cant not find that typical toolmark in your etch.
    To be honest this would not be a dagger that i would buy, i missing the typical period engraving tool markings seen on numerous NPEA guards.


    Regards
    Ger

  8. #7

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    Is this Scharfuhrer Schnell a known personality? If not, it seems very strange that a faker would engrave an unknown name on a fairly nice dagger for no or little added value appeal. As for the locations, I'm at a loss to think of a credible explanation to cover why a Thuringia man would be given a Berlin dagger. The engravings (that's what they are, of course) could easily be explained by the man relocating to a new city, but as to their authenticity, I'd almost have to have it in actual hand to examine under decent magnification to have a hope of a definitive idea on them. I'm leaning towards a hand held engraver, as I can make out the starting dots in several places such as the "S" in Schnell, the top of the slash in "2/153" etc. It was done carefully and fairly well by whoever applied it. There are small imperfections such as the small "r" in Ronneberg that I would expect to see with a hand engraved inscription.

    One disturbing bit, though, is the fact that apparently both locations and dates look to be engraved by the same hand. This would not make sense, if the man relocated to another city and had his new town engraved onto his blade. I can see no reason why he would have had both locations done at the same time.

    Overall, the piece has good points and a number of questionable ones, and, unfortunately, the questionable bits raise some pretty unsettling problems that cannot be explained. A person could, conceivably, come up with a convoluted and bizarre tale to cover it all, but in the end, I would have to walk away from this one. It would definitely bother me too much to keep.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  9. #8
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    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    Is this Scharfuhrer Schnell a known personality? If not, it seems very strange that a faker would engrave an unknown name on a fairly nice dagger for no or little added value appeal...

    The engravings (that's what they are, of course) could easily be explained by the man relocating to a new city, but as to their authenticity, I'd almost have to have it in actual hand to examine under decent magnification to have a hope of a definitive idea on them. I'm leaning towards a hand held engraver, as I can make out the starting dots in several places such as the "S" in Schnell, the top of the slash in "2/153" etc. It was done carefully and fairly well by whoever applied it. There are small imperfections such as the small "r" in Ronneberg that I would expect to see with a hand engraved inscription...

    One disturbing bit, though, is the fact that apparently both locations and dates look to be engraved by the same hand. This would not make sense, if the man relocated to another city and had his new town engraved onto his blade. I can see no reason why he would have had both locations done at the same time.
    This is turning into a real game of CSI, which I am starting to enjoy I'm posting below a few more macro photos taken with my more capable digital camera. Wagriff's comments got me looking more closely (under magnification) and I now see more that may help explain some things here.

    Under magnification it is now clear that the name and "2/153" were applied separately from BOTH locations and dates. It appears that the locations and the dates (on both sides) were applied at the same time. This would explain the odd composition of the overall engraving (not being centered vertically on the blade).

    Have a look at the photos and compare the locations and dates (both sets) with the name and "2/153" and you'll see what I mean. The characters are thicker in the name and "2/153" than they are in the locations and dates. I also do not see the same tool marks in the locations and dates, and the toning of BOTH locations and dates also appear to have faded fairly evenly while the toning of the name and "2/153" have remained nice and dark.

    What does this mean? To me this begins to explain some of the things we've been battling with here, and perhaps gives the piece some credibility. Thoughts?

    As a sidenote, I too would like to know if anyone has data on this individual ("Scharführer Schnell"). This may put this discussion to bed quickly if we know he was in these areas during this time period.

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

    Looking for info related to personalized SA dagger blade...

  10. #9

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    Let's go back to my post #2...was this a Rohm blade and show a pic of the whole reverse side ..and not just where the engraving lays .

    Why are there heavy grind marks on an early blade and now I'm with William on this one ...have see it in hand for any traces,of once Rohm dedication

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  11. #10

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    2 different engravings still does not give credibility of a given designated Berlin SA dagger in 2 other locations ..but I'm willing to see this through with the engravings once photos of the whole reverse side of the blade are posted ..let's dig into this
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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