SA dagger RZM 7/27 Puma Solingen & Heer dagger: real or counterfeit?

[Mancunian]

Hello folks, following the revelation on this thread that the SS dagger that I was recently given by an elderly gentleman who wishes for his collection, which he believed to be genuine, to go to a good home and therefore entrusted to me has proven to be a probable fake I have decided to post a couple of other items for closer scrutiny.

I am not sure of the etiquette on this forum therefore I have started this new thread rather than tagging these items onto the bottom of my original post regarding the SS dagger. If this is the wrong procedure maybe a moderator would merge the two threads?

Any comments on the items pictured would be greatly appreciated.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi, I have good and bad news for you.

The SA dagger is a very nice original. Known as a transitional type to collectors as it is both maker and RZM marked. Circa 1936 to 1938 only.

However, the Heer Officers dagger is a fake: two clues here: the makers name location of "Berlin" and the swirling pattern formed by the dot pattern on the scabbard. These dots should form a random pattern with no swirling look to them.

You have done the right thing by posting a new thread.

Cheers, Ade.

[Mancunian]

Thanks for that Ade - you have made my day.

When the authenticity of the SS dagger was proven to be questionable I thought it would be the same case for the rest but it is great to know the SA dagger is an original.

Have you any idea how an SA man would have acquired such a dagger, was it presented free of charge when one become a fully signed up member of the SA, or perhaps they were available to purchase when you become accepted as a fully fledged SA man or maybe they were awarded as a trophy for bravery or devotion to the movement?

I still have a number of different daggers to post up, I will do it in the near future.

The thing that amazes me about the fakes is the quality. The SS and Heer daggers seem so well made it is easy to see how the old chap who gave me his collection got tricked. When I think of counterfeit products I think of the cr@ppy watches made in the Far East which are imitations of Swiss watches, they are relatively easy to spot but these fake daggers not only look convincing they feel like pure quality made products.

With the internet and fantastic forums like this it is quite simple to get expert opinion but before the internet when my old friend was amassing his collection I suppose it was hit and miss as to whether or not an item was real or fake.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi, my pleasure.

I am adding a link translated from German all about the SA & SS 1933 pattern daggers. It will anwser all you questions. And save me typing LOL!

Google Translate

Sadly back in the old days it was the "school of hard knocks" and most of us learnt the hard way, by getting stung with a fake. The 'net has made life very easy for the new collector in some ways. Many fakes lie dormant in old collections such as your friends.

I look forwards to seeing the other daggers.

Cheers, Ade.

[85ronnies]

Totally agree with Ade could go into a lot of other faults with the heer but i think it's best not to you know what fakers are like they come on here to
cheers ronnie

[gerrit]

Nail on the head Ade!,
I like the transitional SA dagger with Assmann hanger
it has also a great scabbard!

[Pumawerk]

Nice transitional dagger bud; nice find a a keeper! Puma aka Lauterjung & Sohn. This maker used to make also SS daggers under RZM 1052/38 SS, Wittmann Reference book p162.

Cheers