K98 Bayonet canvas and leather frog

[Sleepwalker]

Hello,

Now that's a bit confusing.

Where does the information come from that the frogs I show come from East Germany? This information is not correct. These were manufactured at Wersa Munich and have nothing to do with the GDR. They come from the TR. There are only a few variants. One has black leather on the outside, the other brown. + There are no known replacement or leftover pieces from production. These frogs were present in West Germany long before the fall of the Berlin Wall. The woven material does not fit into GDR production because it is made entirely from linen and not from mixed fabrics or synthetic fibers.

The NVA never carried the K98k and the S84/98. That was the KVP, the DVP and later the fighting groups of the working class. Only newly produced frogs made of pig leather are known here.

According to my observations, the frog and related types from #1 are modern reproductions. 10 to 20 years ago they were very often available for purchase. Also with a strange maker's stamp with a horse.

The frog you show is made from British web material and, as far as we know, was made in the Litzmannstadt ghetto. There are many variations.










Other pieces of equipment were also made from the fabric, such as: bread bags, backpacks, y-straps etc.









Regards

[Frogprince]

Hello,

Now that's a bit confusing.

Where does the information come from that the frogs I show come from East Germany? This information is not correct. These were manufactured at Wersa Munich and have nothing to do with the GDR. They come from the TR. There are only a few variants. One has black leather on the outside, the other brown. + There are no known replacement or leftover pieces from production. These frogs were present in West Germany long before the fall of the Berlin Wall. The woven material does not fit into GDR production because it is made entirely from linen and not from mixed fabrics or synthetic fibers.

The NVA never carried the K98k and the S84/98. That was the KVP, the DVP and later the fighting groups of the working class. Only newly produced frogs made of pig leather are known here.

According to my observations, the frog and related types from #1 are modern reproductions. 10 to 20 years ago they were very often available for purchase. Also with a strange maker's stamp with a horse.

The frog you show is made from British web material and, as far as we know, was made in the Litzmannstadt ghetto. There are many variations.


Regards

My apologies if I was confusing. First, the kaki/tan ersatz frog I posted (from a U.S. veteran source) has nothing to do with the gray types. When fairly large quantities of East German surplus (and some Russian items) arrived on the West Coast mixed in was some ex-German WW2 Wehrmacht field gear etc. that had "NVA" stamps added. The gray woven fabric E.G. field gear straps etc. etc. is something that I have never tested but something that I could do this summer (not an active area for me it's in storage). My recollection being that the East German field gear went through an evolution in some of that ways that they made things that made more use of synthetics. Best Regards, Fred

[Frogprince]

Hello! looks to be an old late war 'bread bag' or 'last ditch' type frog, which are a bit harder to find, very nice!
I also agree with Spartan, pictures without the bayonet in the scabbard would be much appreciated!...........................

............................ Couldn't find any other images for some reason.

From an old photo shoot, here is a pair of "breadbag" frogs as seen on the left side. (A good friend of mine did some specialization with them as a collector.) They were not made to have a long service life, and varied a lot seemingly from whatever was available at the time from a maker or makers that probably had lighter duty sewing/assembly capabilities. The center frog as I recall from Austria, and the one on the far right a "full bore" German conversion of a prewar Czech frog still with CZ markings on the back. (Please note that both of them have tie straps that have the correct orientation for the WW2 period Wehrmacht.) Best Regards, Fred

[Mordecai]

Thank you very much Sleepwalker for the additional pictures!.
I was under the impression this one could've been made out of some British Khaki like some examples i had seen thanks for the correction and pointing out it is a reproduction.

[AndyB]

They are many question opened here, offcoarse the first presented webfrog looks little strange, but with this pictures hard to say they are too small, details of secure strap, knob etc would be needed, maybe it was really produced postwar for german police or other? i dont have any information about it. The SW and FP presented some other late war webfrogs which could be delivered to Volksturm or Behoerden Guarding units, which were found with blanko bayonets as period configuration. The last photo of FP i dont believe there is any of this a CS frog, as the last in right position is a german frog, but could be used postwar by CS units and so marked. CS never used rivets and this shape of frog. But it could be remained in CS territory after moving of german units post 1945. The GDR got many tousands of Kar98k rifles with bayonets from Czechoslovakia postwar and reused them, question is by VoPo or by other units pre NVA?

[Sleepwalker]

Hello,

After the Second World War, TR equipment continued to be used in the early GDR. These included belts, frogs and other leather items. They were often stamped with HVA. It cannot be ruled out that these frogs from post-1945 stocks were also reused.







The GDR began to build the bayonet for the AK under license in 1959. Previously they were obtained from the USSR. This makes it easy to see the colors and materials used. At first it was khaki based on the Russian model. Soon afterwards he was gray after the GDR selection. Generally khaki/stone gray and black leather were used.

However, the structure of the webbing, weave and quality were completely different. Yes, from the beginning, mainly mixed fabrics with a high proportion of synthetic fibers or only synthetic fibers were used. Linen was no longer used. The advantage of synthetic fibers was that the ends no longer had to be beaded or laboriously sewn off but could be thermally melted. Was easier to produce and handle.

Here is a very early carrying part of the GDR bayonet from 1959 based on the USSR model. Soon there was one made entirely of web. But you can see the color, the webbing and the synthetic fiber as well as fused ends.












So you have to imagine the first webbing produced after 1945 in the GDR for the armed organs in the mid-1950s. The belts and y-straps produced were also made of synthetic or mixed fabrics with a different weave and color. The early use of artificial leather is also striking.

[Sleepwalker]

Hello,

Yes, I have now been able to secure every variant of the so-called bread bag frogs. Most of them differed in the color of the yarn used. These are temporary productions towards the end of the war. Here too I was able to secure some in their original condition.

These frogs were not very durable or resilient. the leather quality was rather poor. They were probably intended for forces that were deployed purely in the hinterland. possibly security guards, police service, training units or SA military teams.
​











This also included S84/98 supplied by authorities/police/state organizations. Mostly with "Alcaso AWS" stamped S94/98.











But there are also variants that are slightly different in terms of structure and materials used. Material captured by USSR troops was probably used here.














Regards

[Frogprince]

Thank you very much Sleepwalker for the additional pictures!.
I was under the impression this one could've been made out of some British Khaki like some examples i had seen thanks for the correction and pointing out it is a reproduction.

The frogs made from captured material are copies (not postwar reproductions), the Germans having an extensive history of using recycled and captured weapons and equipment. Best Regards, Fred

[Sleepwalker]

The frogs made from captured material are copies (not postwar reproductions), the Germans having an extensive history of using recycled and captured weapons and equipment. Best Regards, Fred

Hello,

why should these be copies? I don't see a single reference point. In addition, they come from sources that hardly allow this.

Apart from the fabric, there are no noticeable differences in material, yarn and workmanship.







Regards

[Frogprince]

They are many question opened here, offcoarse the first presented webfrog looks little strange, but with this pictures hard to say they are too small, details of secure strap, knob etc would be needed, maybe it was really produced postwar for german police or other? i dont have any information about it. The SW and FP presented some other late war webfrogs which could be delivered to Volksturm or Behoerden Guarding units, which were found with blanko bayonets as period configuration. The last photo of FP i dont believe there is any of this a CS frog, as the last in right position is a german frog, but could be used postwar by CS units and so marked. CS never used rivets and this shape of frog. But it could be remained in CS territory after moving of german units post 1945. The GDR got many tousands of Kar98k rifles with bayonets from Czechoslovakia postwar and reused them, question is by VoPo or by other units pre NVA?

Andy, the converted frog I posted is a 1937 dated Czech frog back piece that was remanufactured to be a more or less a German configuration frog. As I'm certain you already know, after the war was over the Czech's resumed the manufacturing of both their frogs and bayonets as they originally made them. As for the "end users" the East German Police vs. the East German Army in my early collecting years I never made a distinction between the two. As it evolved, my second P.38 pistol purchased was (I found out later) an East German rework and it had some "problems" the first time I fired it. There are still pieces of it somewhere on the side of a mountain (the rear sight and top cover piece flew off with along with some other parts) . Best Regards, Fred