...front marking
...front marking
Overhoff & Cie
O&C Ges.gesch. DRGM
Overhoff & Cie
O&C Ges.gesch Type 1
So JP just a question why 1931 for the 1st buckle? Just taken from what Wim Saris translated from actual documents would these have been initial issue/approval buckles in 31? Or actual issue?
" I am going to start here in 1932. We know that Himmler took control of the SS from the SA on the 06th Jan 1929. There is no evidence that at that time they started wearing SS buckles. The SS motto "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" does not appear until April 1931. With that I doubt that buckles would have appeared straight away as I believe a design would have to have been made and approved which would have taken some time. From that we have to conclude that a date of 1932 could be the first date for SS buckles as it is mentioned in the RZM setup information thread in which Wim Saris was so kind as to translate extracts from original German period manuscripts.
"Late 1931: this specifically is an order from December 7, 1931 (“Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP”,
further as “Vbl.RL”. Nr. 14 from December 31, 1931, as well as “Verordnungsblatt der Obersten SA-Führung”, further as
“Vbl.OSAF”, nr. 6 from January 26, 1932) and related to insignia. Names were mentioned, as well as logo’s (Warenzeichen).
With all ges. gesch (gesetzlich geschützt) was to be included (for example O&C ges.gesch for the new nickel-silver SS-buckle –
“Vbl.OSAF”, nr.6 ). The use of this procedure was anyway still mentioned with a November 15, 1932-order and lasted until
the fall of 1933"
If we take this as official information it seems that from Jan 1932 to the fall of 1933 this was the standard for SS buckles. Overhoff and Cie is mentioned officially but there is nothing written as to other early nickel buckles being made at this time.
Ben
I did asked Wim for quite a while between writing books if he could find anything actually official to try and come up the time line for initial issue of the first SS buckles, above are his findings from the written texts
Ben
Why not 1931? Why a major company would wait almost a year for any state approbation when there was no real law enforcement until the end of 1935? And from a company which was already granted exclusive rights of production by the highest authority himself (A.Hitler) who also drew himself the overall design of the new buckle? Then we could also question why there was so many different makers having produced SS buckles when officially only one, Overhoff, was granted those rights. There was margins between when something was done and when something was officialized... And this lasted even after 1933 when the NSDAP became more powerful than before. Also, we can rely only on few remaining documents: Most disappeared leaving only assumptions on which was between... The only thing we can be sure of if that no SS buckle with the motto "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" could ever had been produced before April 1931. But when money talks there is always a way to make it fast...by Ben Evans
Ok JP interesting opinion, for me and again just MO I would have thought 1932 would have been a more realistic year going from the known info. But again back then anything was possible!
Ben
Indeed, relying on just "known info" which is the slimmest as possible with anything related to the Third Reich period. Remember the earliest date we have as "known info" for the RZM no longer supplying uniform parts to the W-SS is Sept 44...😉
Obviously after reading this thread, Wim Saris sent me a message which I am going to post here with his permission. This is a straight copy/paste:
"Hello,
*
I saw the discussion at WRF, but as I am banned I cannot take part.
*
Maybe Evans mixes up information. The SS buckle is anyway from 1931.
January 26, 1932 the SA -Verordnungsblatt mentions on page 5 with
prices:
Neues Leibriemenschloss für die SS, ges.gesch.
If the magazine is from January, preparations and finishing the text
took anyway place in 1931, as a mentioned order is from December, 15.
The motto did come in April 1931 after the revolt when Hitler says
things about their Treue.
1931 is also what Overhoff told me. They told the sketch came from
Hitler; Overhoff finalized the design.
*
Best regards,
wim"
So, in other words, he confirms what I wrote.
and another straight copy/paste from Wim Saris:
"Hello JP,
*
Forgot to tell that with the same day January 26, 1932
the buckle for SS leaders was announced: Feldbindenschloss
für SS-Führer. This was also ges.gesch.
One could only obtain it as one: including belt (nur fertige
Garnituren).
*
The motto was developed after the Stennes-Putsch, the rebellion
While the OSAF-Stellvertreter Ost did not agree with his dismissal.
Due to their loyalty, the SS at Berlin was commanded by Daluege,
Hitler wrote: SS-Mann, Deine Ehre heisst Treue.
*
Best regards,
wim"
*
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