Very cool early SS dagger

**Title King** · 03-08-2020, 02:56 PM

Thanks FP I understand you think this looks like corrosion, but like I said it is clearly not corrosion, just from the photos on the website.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 03-08-2020 02:56 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Frogprince** · 03-08-2020, 05:01 PM

by Title King

Thanks FP I understand you think this looks like corrosion, but like I said it is clearly not corrosion, just from the photos on the website.

Even with well cared for political daggers it’s not that uncommon to see verdigris creeping out from the socket cavity onto the exterior. When removed it often leaves behind some dull colored minuscule pitting that can be taken off, but then can become a matter of also taking off the normal patination if taken too far. Which some guys do, and even take it a step further for some guys who try to polish for example nickel silver as bright as possible - to try and match the plated steel hardware on a M1936 model dagger. And there is this from the description:

“Another unique aspect of this piece is that you can see a brown under tone to both the scabbard and grip. This is commonly encountered on these early SS daggers by E.P & S. Under closer examination you can see it was stored with the scabbard on backwards. The sun light got to it leaving that brown undertone you see to one side and the darker tone to the other.”

The grips as manufactured having a black surface finish which can be and in many cases has been worn off is one thing. But sunlight turning blueing brown? Sunlight? Versus what is well known to gun collectors as “browning out” that being the effect of rust (red oxide) co-mingling with the blue/black oxide of blueing. My point being that parts of the scabbard also show what look like (red) rust nodules, so it’s very likely if not certain that there had to be some poor storage sometime in the dagger’s history. Best Regards, Fred

**Title King** · 03-08-2020, 05:45 PM

Yes and the area you originally said looked like corrosion is neither corrosion nor verdigris and yes epack grips brown more than other makers. Simply put a fantastic piece with no issues. And finally yes scabbards blued to black also turn brown due to age sun etc. None of this has anything to do with the reason for my post which was the rare playing remaining on the scabbard and guards. If you are saying that is added then just say that!

**rbminis** · 03-08-2020, 07:32 PM

by Title King

None of this has anything to do with the reason for my post which was the rare playing remaining on the scabbard and guards.

If you start a thread on an item, expect a discussion.
Ralph.

**Title King** · 03-08-2020, 07:47 PM

Good point Ralph. My point was just what people have seen in re plating remaining

I don't think the piece has been messed with in re the fittings plating or the grip whatsoever.

**Frogprince** · 03-09-2020, 12:34 AM

by Title King

Good point Ralph. My point was just what people have seen in re plating remaining

I don't think the piece has been messed with in re the fittings plating or the grip whatsoever.

Having a general interest in how the daggers and some other TR artifacts were manufactured, it has led me to a close look at period electroplating processes that has been helpful in detecting some of the fakes. Not in hand it would probably take me some really close looking and maybe a limited (or more extensive if needed) disassembly to arrive at a more definitive conclusion at this juncture. (Not a practical approach at this point, with not really bad - but also not high resolution photographs there is not much else I think to say.) The grip being another matter because while one chipped area shows actual wood being exposed. Other areas to me look like they have had some refinishing on top of damage. The blade being another area where it looks like some rust was probably removed - but I also know it’s really hard to get images of the crossgrain, so my comments not in hand, are to be taken in a more general sense. PS: I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I do think that we see things differently. Best Regards, Fred

**Larry C** · 03-09-2020, 01:04 AM

This thread has been Gentlemanly, Cordial and educational ..I applaud everyones replies in keeping this thread constructive

Regards Larry

**Title King** · 03-09-2020, 01:46 PM

The areas you point to on the wood seem fine to me.Based on how well the dye took to the wood, and which way it was stored, different dents and dings appear different. Similarly, some may be 10 years old, some 20, some 50 and some 80!

So fred, do you think the plating is bad?

Would you pleas post some early daggers from your collection as comparisons?

**Frogprince** · 03-09-2020, 04:56 PM

by Title King

The areas you point to on the wood seem fine to me.Based on how well the dye took to the wood, and which way it was stored, different dents and dings appear different. Similarly, some may be 10 years old, some 20, some 50 and some 80!

So fred, do you think the plating is bad?

Would you pleas post some early daggers from your collection as comparisons?

Something that has been discussed elsewhere at great length, some of supposed theories that seem to have permeated this area of collecting do not seem to relate well to conventional period practices. (And do you understand the physical difference between a dye and a wood surface finishing product like a stain?) Likewise, if you look at SA daggers, and period service bayonet wood grips from those who made them what is the physical evidence there? As for the plating it’s bad by definition because it’s coming off in large areas, and the Germans had already had extensive successful experience for many decades. Which is not to say that plating cannot be compromised and lose its adhesion to the base metal. So can you elaborate on what is the reason it happened here? And as requested here is a photo from my collection (of images that are devoted to dagger manufacturing). I have a number of others, but I think that this one needs no explanation, and should suffice. Best Regards, Fred

**Title King** · 03-09-2020, 05:08 PM

I meant pictures relevant to plating or to small abrasion to the wood--half a grip doesn't seem relevant?

Im sure the plating here is coming off just like plating on all plated daggers........age, storage, etc.......

You say "As for the plating it’s bad by definition because it’s coming off in large areas, and the Germans had already had extensive successful experience for many decades. Which is not to say that plating cannot be compromised and lose its adhesion to the base metal." so if plating is coming off it is not period? Your second sentence directly then contradicts this.....so you do or do not think this plating is period? straightforward question here.