Zimmermann 499/41 Zinc TK

**Aldo** · 07-19-2021, 09:53 PM

Here is a Zimmermann skull I've been waiting for in the mail for over a month. It's a near mint zinc specimen with a spectacular silver finish and the cone type attachments. It looks great with my other Zimmermann's.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 07-19-2021 09:53 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**CBH** · 07-19-2021, 10:15 PM

That must be the cleanest zinc TK I’ve ever seen, nice addition.

**Aldo** · 07-19-2021, 11:17 PM

by CBH

That must be the cleanest zinc TK I’ve ever seen, nice addition.

I agree Chris ! Now I have a minty cupal and zinc version. Time to move on to another type.

**another ant** · 07-20-2021, 12:12 AM

Sorry to be the killjoy , but the zimmermann cone skulls only exist in two types,
1- the cupal version and
2- the aluminum on the front with a simple negative copper layer on the back.
these cone zimmermann skulls in zinc never existed.

**Aldo** · 07-20-2021, 12:20 AM

Really ? That's a bummer. I need to investigate this a little more then. I had no doubt on authenticity until now. It's also from the most reputable of dealers so I'm not worried about losing my money. Thank you for your opinion.

**another ant** · 07-20-2021, 12:46 AM

I also squeak the type of hooks.
So would the standard hooks that would be expected in these two types of cone zimmermann and what comes out of there is a red flag in my opinion.

There is always the hope that it could be that it has been misidentified as zinc skull and is one of the two real types with an unusual or artificial bath and that also has unusual hooks , but.

**Aldo** · 07-20-2021, 02:39 PM

First let me thank you for your in depth analysis and expertise. You make a compelling argument. As I examine the skull I still can't dismiss the overall precise detail that matches exactly to my other Zimmermann skulls. To my eye it looks like a crisp die stamped skull. An in hand examination is required to really reveal the detail on the skull. However, I can see the differences in the metal attachments as you pointed out, they are shorter and broader than in other specimens. I know there are always anomalies in this hobby and I'm hoping this is one of them. My question is then if someone is producing these high quality fakes, why are there not more on the market. I would expect something like this to be a real money maker by the crooks. I'm still on the fence with this skull but now that there is doubt I feel uncomfortable. I'm providing many more photo's to compare with another zinc example in my collection. hopefully these will reveal something more. Thank you.

**Aldo** · 07-20-2021, 05:13 PM

I also see that this would be the appropriate prongs for this cone type as you stated.

Credit: W. Kramer

**Dos** · 07-20-2021, 07:39 PM

I wish i had the opportunity to inspect it in hand. IMO it looks like a nice Fritz Zimmermann 499/41 Cupal TK, but with some issues. I've read something about die stamp flaws on these Zimmermann's that progressed during the production time of these skulls. (extra material that does not look right) Yours does not have any of these flaws that were most present on the right crossbones of these skulls. Therefore, it is probably an earlier production piece. Whether this is the answer to the different pins on the back is not clear for me, but earlier production often means different pins on various other skull insignia that we know of. The same front die stamp for these skulls was used in combination with the cone and flat crimped back stamp. The flaws are mentioned in this thread linked below, unfortunately the link to the WAF forum by All1knew where it is explained is not working for me at the moment. (It did in the past, so maybe it is just me now)

Interesting Zimmerman Skull (499/41)

In the front view there are some area's of concern and these need to be examined. There seem to be a few spots that are not identifiable by photo for me.

I have circled them blue. What are these spots?

The red lined area seems to have a different finish then the rest of the skull. This can also be seen on the back at the same spots near the pin placement.

This next photo shows a lot in my opinion. I've marked the red circle on the pin to point out the fact that it has a blob of solder near the pin. As far as i know the original pins were not soldered onto the skull on Zimmermann Tk's. Both type of attachments were originally crimped in by the material surrounding it. The red arrows show the same uneven finish that can be seen on the front. Maybe this was caused by heat when they re - placed the pins?

The blue line on the dome shows a more copper like base material to me coming through the silver finish. Can you confirm it is indeed not zinc material? Weighing it in comparison to your other example could show a mayor difference.

Best regards,

-Dos

**Robin Lumsden** · 07-20-2021, 08:03 PM

For what it's worth, I can't see a problem with the TK that started this thread.

If it's a fake, then it would fool me ................. at least, from the photos.

Determining authenticity from photos alone is fraught with danger. The same maker's mark can look completely different in two photos taken from different angles, or in different lighting.

Also - dealer descriptions can't always be relied on ........................ a couple of years back I bought a 1957 PLM from a major German dealer who described it as gilt bronze, but when it arrived it was a much rarer gilded '800' silver one and marked as such. He had just missed the tiny silver mark.

Here's a photo of the reverse of a broken Zimmermann TK I've had for over 30 years, which shows the cones without the pins, for comparison. It's the cupal type, though.