I Found the Holy Grail ..................

[Robin Lumsden]

Quite why the man pictured above from SS-Oberabschnitt "Suedwest" was wearing a bayonet with the knot is intriguing as his official sidearm would have been a service dagger.

Derek.

My thoughts exactly.

Just goes to show ................. in this game you can never say 'Never' !

[Pascal BERNHARD]

SS VT "Deutschand"

[Robin Lumsden]

Pascal.

Great photo !

Thanks for posting it.

[d'alquen]

For those who like the minutiae of this hobby here is a document regarding the introduction of these black and white knots that I would have added as a footnote in my book if I'd come across it in time. It is from a flurry of orders issued in preparation for the 1935 Reichsparteitag for the men of SS-Wachtruppe Sachsen.
Paragraph 2 states:
Today the Hundertschaften will receive the newly prescribed knots for SS men and N.C.O.s up to and including SS-Scharfuehrer. The knots are to be issued immediately. They are to be worn with the guard uniform, parade uniform and walking out uniform. Otherwise they are to be worn by special order of the Hundertscharfuhrer. The wearing of all other knots is forbidden from now on.

[d'alquen]

For those who do like the minutiae of this hobby I suppose the date might help: August 26, 1935.

[Anderson]

Interesting thread, thanks.

[Robin Lumsden]

For those who do like the minutiae of this hobby .........

That's me !

Thanks for posting this, Derek.

So, this is apparently the current best information re. introduction dates for the first SS-Wachtruppe collar patch TK and the 'official' SS-TV etc. bayonet knot .......................

I think they belong together.

[d'alquen]

Robin,
The first pattern collar patches were introduced in a March 18th, 1935 order from the SS-Hauptamt, but the complexity of the design meant that the supply of them took virtually the whole year. The 23rd Hundertschaft of Sachsen didn't receive enough patches until December 1935. Prior to that collar patches were moved from grey tunics to black coats and patches were distributed according to rank, with recruits being the last to get them.
As for the bayonet knot, I never did find an order introducing them so can't give you an exact date. The knots for Wachmannschaften were included in the April 1935 SS Pricelist so they were probably introduced at the same time as the collar patches despite not being mentioned in that order. Sachsen ordered the knots referred to above in post 74 on August 10, so I presume they didn't feel the need for them until their public appearance at the RPT.

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin,
The first pattern collar patches were introduced in a March 18th, 1935 order from the SS-Hauptamt, but the complexity of the design meant that the supply of them took virtually the whole year. The 23rd Hundertschaft of Sachsen didn't receive enough patches until December 1935. Prior to that collar patches were moved from grey tunics to black coats and patches were distributed according to rank, with recruits being the last to get them.
As for the bayonet knot, I never did find an order introducing them so can't give you an exact date. The knots for Wachmannschaften were included in the April 1935 SS Pricelist so they were probably introduced at the same time as the collar patches despite not being mentioned in that order. Sachsen ordered the knots referred to above in post 74 on August 10, so I presume they didn't feel the need for them until their public appearance at the RPT.

Excellent information !

Looks most probable that they both date from 18.3.35.

Non-identical twins.

Thanks again, Derek.

[Robin Lumsden]

Looks most probable that they both date from 18.3.35.

Better (and updated!) pic ...............