SS'fliegerstürme collar tab- for opinion.

[Regen]

Hello Gentlemen.
I want to learn your opinion on this couple SS'fliegerstürme kragenspiegel.
I consider that it is undoubtedly Original tab's, BUT- opinion of my Dear Colleagues, is always useful for me.
________

Many thanks for your Attention to my thread
Cheers, Re.

[HPL2008]

There is one aspect to them that immediately caught my eye:

The SS-Fliegerstürme were disbanded in July 1933. At that time, all enlisted-/NCO ranks still had white collar patch piping. (At the time, officers ranked Sturmführer up to and including Sturmhauptführer had black-and-aluminum piping, officers from Sturmbannführer upwards aluminum piping.) In October 1934, collar patch piping for all enlisted-/NCO ranks was changed to black-/aluminum. (All officers now had aluminum piping.)

Thus, a collar patch for an enlisted-/NCO ranked member of the Fliegerstürme could only have white piping.

Also, alternating black-and-white piping for collar patches didn't officially exist at all. (This was only worn as collar cord by enlisted-/NCO ranks up to October 1934.) However, I do not want to completely rule out the possibility that such patches were manufactured and worn by mistake, and will leave more knowledgable members to comment on that and the patches themselves.


Excerpt from an RFSS order of 21 July 1933 about the disbandment of the SS-Fliegerstürme:


Excerpt from the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM of 23 June 1934 still specifying the white collar patch piping for ranks of SS-Mann up to and including SS-Obertruppführer:


Excerpt from the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM of 7 November 1934 now specifying black-and-aluminum collar patch piping for ranks of SS-Anwärter up to and including SS-Stabsscharführer:

[Regen]

Dear HPL2008,
Many thanks for your answer. You very well know work
I know about what you have written. but you know that contrary to the order of RFSS, black-white piping was used also till 1934th year.
my Best Regards, Re.

[BOB COLEMAN]

Dear HPL2008,
Many thanks for your answer. You very well know work
I know about what you have written. but you know that contrary to the order of RFSS, black-white piping was used also till 1934th year.
my Best Regards, Re.

In cases like this, there would be a period of time allowed to modify the uniform. It certainly would not be unusual to see black and white piping still being worn.
As to the tabs that started this thread, from the pictures alone I do not like them. They look to fresh to be over 80 years old. I would also like to see some discoloration on the buckram and also verdigris around the brass pins.

[HPL2008]

I know about what you have written. but you know that contrary to the order of RFSS, black-white piping was used also till 1934th year.

In cases like this, there would be a period of time allowed to modify the uniform. It certainly would not be unusual to see black and white piping still being worn.

One of the points that I was making is that black-and-white collar patch piping was not supposed to exist at all, only black-and-aluminum. If collar patches with black-and-white piping were made and worn (as I said, I wouldn't rule this out completely, as much in those early-Third-Reich days was not yet properly standardized) they were already in violation of regulations to begin with.

However, enlisted/NCO ranks were not yet authorized to wear black-and-aluminum collar piping at the time the Fliegerstürme existed, so the collar patches seen above would violate two regulations: Incorrect alternating piping for this rank and incorrect material for the alternating piping.

Tho photos in post # 3 really prove nothing, here. It is simply not possible to tell whether the SS-Mann in the period image has black-and-white or black-and-aluminum piping around his collar patches and collar. Black-and-aluminum piping on the collar patches and the greatcoat collar would be correct for a photo taken after October 1934. That he is still wearing the first-model Death's Head at this time is unsurprising, as many photographs show them in wear well after the second model's introduction. The LSSAH collar patch in the color photo is definitely piped in black-and-aluminum, not black-and-white.

[d'alquen]

If genuine the patches are most likely SA.

[CBH]

Also of note, the tab shown in Cloth Insignia of the SS has a different style Wing Propeller , the blades are straight and there is a circle around the swastika.

This style of wing reminds me of some early NSFK or DLF insignia.

[HPL2008]

If genuine the patches are most likely SA.

An interesting thought and a possibility that I had not considered.

In that case - if they are genuine (on which I still do not wish to comment) - they would have to be for SA-Gruppe Berlin-Brandenburg.

[Unlike the SS at the time period in question, enlisted/NCO ranks of the SA had two-color collar patch piping in their Gruppe colors. Black collar patches with black-and-white piping were worn by the Gruppen Berlin-Brandenburg and Niederrhein. Niederrhein had gold buttons and badges (including rank pips), Berlin-Brandenburg silver.]

[Regen]

Also of note, the tab shown in Cloth Insignia of the SS has a different style Wing Propeller , the blades are straight and there is a circle around the swastika.

This style of wing reminds me of some early NSFK or DLF insignia.

Dear Colleague CBH,
Thanks for your Opinion!
propeller without swastika, is later type(I am right?).
propeller emblem on kragenspiegel, was a uniform sample for SS and SA fliegerstürme.

[Wilhelm Saris]

You should properly credit the photo from post 9 and have
asked me for permission to use the photo.
You may have taken if from volume 4 from "Headgear
of Hitler's Germany" (credit: Klaus D. Patzwall), page 154.
Or you took the photo from volume 2 from the same series,
page 164.