M16 of the 2nd MG Division

[Wolf]

Hello everyone,

I have seen this M16 helmet (with M17 tin band) and would like to hear your opinion on the originality and condition of the helmet.

According to the dealer everything is original from WW1. However, I have my doubts. On the one hand, the helmet seems to be painted over with a darker green (according to the dealer, typical for the western front. Is that true???) and on the other hand, the insignia of the MG Division makes me skeptical, since I have only ever seen this painted insignia as a fake (Was the badge actually painted on helmets or is it just a recent invention of scammers???).

I also wonder if the combination "2nd MG Division 2nd Company" is even possible, since I read that after 1908 the MG troops assigned to the cavalry were called "MG Division" and the MG troops assigned to the Infantry were called "MG Company"!?

Any opinion on this is appreciated.

Best regards
Wolf

[AndyM35]

There was no special Western Front dark green paint as such, rather it looks like the original smooth factory feldgrau paint has be painted over with a brush indicating it to have been reissued during the war. If done at depot level you will generally see a hand stencilled shell size in the rear apron which for this shell would be a 64.The German helmet factories used varying shades of feldgrau and also keep in mind that sometimes paint will darken with patina as it ages.

M16 shells fitted with M17 steel liner bands were normally fitted with white chrome tanned liner pads, with brown pads seen on earlier steel banded example. I’m not sure the ratio of M17 steel banded helmets that may have been fitted with brown leather , but generally speaking chrome tanned leather with M17/M18 steel banded shells is what is mostly encountered. I would be interested to see some photos of the liner pins from the inside if possible.

Regarding the MG insignia, it’s hard to say based on these photos and looking on an ipad and known original examples are so scarcely encountered that it’s difficult to draw any conclusions. The photos aren’t the best although the paint on the insignia and in the rear skirt does appear to be old…..but more than 100 years? It is possible that the insignia and writing in the rear skirt may have been added post war to make the helmet more of an interesting souvenir for the returning soldier. Lots of shells were painted in camos at the end of the war and sold to returning soldiers as souvenirs as well. Not saying this is necessarily the case here but something to keep in mind.

Edit: It was also been noted that photos of helmets with MGC crew insignia are virtually unknown unlike images of helmets with Hohenzollern shields. Some have theorised that it would seem somewhat perilous to advertise the fact that you were part of a machine gun crew so clearly.

[Wolf]

Hello Andy,

Thanks for the information. You're always a great help.^^

That the helmet was repainted for reissue during the war makes a lot more sense than claiming it was a special paint for the western front. However, I cannot see a bowl size stenciled by hand. Does that mean it wasn't done at depot level but in the field?


Regarding the theory that it would have been dangerous to wear an MGC insignia, I wonder how it was with the MGC sleeve insignia in WW1? We know that these existed, were they only for dress uniforms then or were they worn in the field (that would have been just as dangerous)? Do you know more about it?




Regarding the pins and the quality of the close-ups, I spoke to the dealer again and he sent me these pictures:


















I would be very interested to hear your opinion on the helmet with the new photos.

Thank you in advance for your efforts.

Best regards
Wolf


PS: All other opinions and contributions from our members are of course also very appreciated.^^

[BlackCat1982]

Nice helm Wolf, but I think the unit interpretation is incorrect. To me it reads 2 MG Abteilung, 2 Kompanie. I think that as such MG Abteilungen were attached to Kavallerie Divisions. There was no such thing as an MG Division.

[BlackCat1982]

MG insignia in wear, the picture dates to 1918.

[AndyM35]

Hi Wolf,

Yes, if refurbed at a depot you would expect to see a stencilled size number as in the example below from one in my collection. I can’t see one, but whether its there and painted over it’s hard to tell. Having said that, I don’t think that refurbed helmets were always re-painted as such. Sometimes just the liner was replaced etc.This one may have been refurbed quite early with a steel band but brown leather pads as opposed to chrome tan as there was a crossover period. Really hard to say based on the photos which are extremely important as you’d know and these are quite good but there’s nothing like actually holding the helmet in hand. And as I said, there was no Western Front feldgrau. Sometimes people make up stories to make an item seem more interesting or it could be what the dealer/seller believes but isn’t necessarily true.




Thanks for the additional photos of the liner pin legs. The two that I can see in detail look to be originals which is good to see.

Regarding the painted machine gun insignia, these types of things are always very subjective but one thing is certain, they do cause a lot of debate and more often than not are additions used to increase value. I have seen many that don’t look very convincing but some that are said to be originals but these are very few and far between. If I can, I will see if I can get permission to post some of these images for you. But whether or not these were painted during the war, or even as a badge of honour for post war parades it’s hard to say. Can’t tell you a lot about the badge as I haven’t really studied them but they certainly exist and there is also a train of though that some may have worn the insignia on the helmet without regard for any consequences if captured. There is a lot we don’t know and probably never will. Ludwig Baer does show a colour image of one in his book “The History of the German Steel Helmet 1916-1945”, but again like a lot of insignia it’s very hard to date. If for example it was painted in the 70’s it would be showing nearly 50 years of ageing by now.

Personally, I’m not convinced by the insignia and wouldn’t buy the helmet based on that. All of the parts do look original but something seems a little off. Some helmets I’m comfortable purchasing from photos but not with this one. It could turn out OK, but is it worth the risk when there are still perfectly good untouched examples being sold?

[MAP]

IMO....the MG stencil on the exterior of the shell does not match the age/wear of the name on the interior.

[AndyM35]

Unlike insignia painted on the side of a helmet, MG insignia in the form of sleeve patches were apparently designed for easy removal. According to Michael Baldwin in Feldzug, Volume 5, pp49, “This patch was only sewn to its wearers tunic at 4 points…..This method would have allowed a petrified gunner, after having heard these rumours, to quickly rip it from his sleeve”.

[Wolf]

Hello BlackCat1982,

thanks for the hint. The photo is great because you can clearly see the sleeve insignia on several people.

Best regards
Wolf

[Wolf]

Hello Andy,

Thank you for the interesting comments and information.

As I wrote in my initial post, I'm also very skeptical about such painted MG badges, since I've never seen a real one. If you get permission to post the photos of the helmet badges that are considered real, I would be very happy about it. It would be a great opportunity to study their characteristics.

I agree that there are definitely far better preserved, untouched helmets out there. It would actually only be of interest to me because of the MG badge (if it were real). I found it particularly interesting that it was painted on by hand and has a certain age patina which most fakes don't have. But like you, I kind of have a bad gut feeling about it, even if I can't name it directly.

I also agree with MAP that the badge's state of preservation and signs of wear do not match the wearer's inscription. The inscription shows significantly more wear and blemishes, while the badge appears to be near perfect. Insofar that actually speaks for the fact that they do not come from the same time. Many thanks to MAP for pointing this out.

Based on these hints and your advice I'll pass the helmet and save my money for another helmet where there is no such doubt.

Many thanks again to all of you. I'm really happy to have the opportunity to discuss with such luminaries who share my passion for steel helmets. I always learn a lot from it. You're really great.^^

Best regards
Wolf