Ministry of Justice Saber - WKC model 1047

[KingCornChip]

Here is a sword my grandfather brought back from WWII. He brought two (2) of them and they are identical in appearance. From reading Angolia's swords of Germany they are the model 1047 from WKC for the ministry of Justice. They do not have the WKC mark under the hand piece.

My question is if I can get any more information about them. What I wrote above is all I know. How many were made? What years? To whom would they be issued in the ministry of justice? Any any information of this type would be great! I do not have more pictures now but if more are needed I can get to it eventually :P

[Finngaill]

Officials of the justice administration were authorized to wear those swords. These officials wielded the power of life and death every day.
Justice official's saber was worn only by the high level officials when in uniform and during occasions when the wear of the saber was prescribed.

I took liberty to rotate your photos.




Sabers worn by the prison officials were usually of the same pattern as the justice officials, but color was gold.









Really nice to see minty rare bird and especially when it is your's grandfather brought back from WWII
And not only one, but two of those beautiful swords


Thank you for show it, it would be nice to see more pictures of those swords, really like the design of those.

[KingCornChip]

Thanks for the input!

I will get more pictures when I can. They are missing the portepee. Not sure what color it is supposed to be. But they do have the leather buffer pieces intact. A bit of the enamel missing (nothing major) from the scabbard as my mom and uncle apparently sword fought with them as kids...

Any idea as to the year? I'm gathering that they are rather rare from reading posts here on similar ones.

Another question: Is it common for them to lack the maker mark? Obviously there are all kinds of variations out there. But perhaps that helps place a date. Information is hard to come by.

[Finngaill]

As far as I know, portepee post to be standart army pattern, but with grey-green leather strap with gold threads and knot with alternating bands of two gold and one green twist cord.
Justice official has two gold and one red twist cord. So this one should have the gold and red color knot.




I did some research of the year and I come up with this: Thomas M. Johnson's "German Swords of World War II: A Photographic Reference", Volume Three (2006), both the Prison Official and Justice Official swords were introduced on 10 August 1936 and ceased production 31 December 1941, due to the exigencies of the war.

It is not so common to lack of the maker mark, but it is not unusual. It is just missing WKC logo or possibly another manufacturer using purchased WKC parts.


And yes, these are rare swords

[Anderson]

From my late 1930's WKC catalogue; Price was 16.50 RM for Justice version and 17.25 RM for Prison version.

[KingCornChip]

So somewhere around $123 today if the information I was using is correct. Pretty cheap I'd say.

[Finngaill]

So somewhere around $123 today if the information I was using is correct. Pretty cheap I'd say.

I would love to get one with that kind price and not the resale price

But it was different time, hard times and money was short. Except for high level officials it was not like that.

[KurtMenliff]

Hello
Normally, "textbook" examples have the maker logo on the blade but as stated by Finngaill , blades without logo can be encountered .... better than having another maker on the blade like one can see on various sellers sites which could suggest they got messed with ... Justice / Prison models swords appeared around 1936 and were in use until say 1943-4 ... That could give an span on the manufacturing date ...
As far as the price goes, 3000-4000€ would be a fair price for a prison bird for example, IMO... Justice are rarer than Prison by 1/3 ratio according to A. TAUGOURDEAU in his book. Prisons are already quite hard to get by so that gives an idea ...
On the top of that, some models are more sought after like the EICKHORN ones or much rarer like the PUMA model which is nowhere to be found ... Price for this very one could be double ...
As for me, i own this C&J prison model only and have been searching for a textbook EICKHORN justice for years now ... still searching ...

Regards
K.

[KingCornChip]

Thanks for the information. Trying to piece together what I can on where/when my grandfather obtained it. He was airforce in WWII and flew mostly in the Chinese theater of war but he has a ribbon awarded for the European theater as well so I assume he flew both. 11th Bombardment squadron - Flying tigers after their absorption into the airforce. Engineer gunner position. My presumption is that he either traded for it or was "cleaning up" in Germany near/after the end of the war. Unfortunately he never spoke much of his time in the war.

Does the lack of a maker mark indicate anything? Has there been any trend towards them being late war and a time-saving measure or is it a replacement blade? So many questions haha. This is the only place anyone has any solid information on these. And I greatly appreciate it.

[Anderson]

I doubt if many were made after 1942, the date when most non combat dress type blades from Solingen ceased production for higher priority needs of war production. But also in part due to the heavy bombing of the city of Solingen by the RAF which also effected production.