WH sword with left rotated svastika. Helps needed

[Frogprince]

For the record “I have no dog in this fight” as I do not and never have owned this particular version of an Army Officer’s saber by Voos. That said, here are a few examples that I’ve seen from different sources with the great majority of them being made of the later period aluminum base metal that is NOT a characteristic of the known fakes that are in circulation. Also please note that there is a Lionhead version (aluminum), and an earlier brass one that here that has a severely bent knuckle bow as well as the early model Voos style Art Deco backstrap. With many others that I’ve seen having the signs of use and damage here and there that is typical of period German Army Officer sabers. Repeating that “I don’t have dog in this fight” - I’m just following the physical evidence that seems to be out there. With my underlying point being that I did not come to my conclusion lightly. Best Regards, Fred

[stakeside]

This is my first attempt to counterfeit bsiwula1 's expertise at juxtaposition.



I agree with Danmark that all these examples have been cast and show subtle differences, yet they may have the same "HAND" in common.

[stakeside]

Aside from the confusion between Emil Voos and Gustav Voss, both of Solingen, I find it plausible to also consider this SEILHEIMER of Solingen posted by AZ Phil 01-16-2015.

During the INCUNABULA period 1450-1500 while printing was in its infancy, copies were quite common, with or without permission. Since the initial investment in woodcuts or metal printing plates was a substantial cost to the printer, they would often barter or loan them among themselves to amortize expenses. Upon the death of a printer, the estate often was sold and reprints followed for years afterwards.

By analogy I believe that is what we are seeing here.

However, I agree with Danmark, CBH, Larry C and others that we are discussing FOURTH REICH decorative reproductions to meet increasing market demand.

[Frogprince]

Aside from the confusion between Emil Voos and Gustav Voss, both of Solingen, I find it plausible to also consider this SEILHEIMER of Solingen posted by AZ Phil 01-16-2015.

During the INCUNABULA period 1450-1500 while printing was in its infancy, copies were quite common, with or without permission. Since the initial investment in woodcuts or metal printing plates was a substantial cost to the printer, they would often barter or loan them among themselves to amortize expenses. Upon the death of a printer, the estate often was sold and reprints followed for years afterwards.

By analogy I believe that is what we are seeing here.

However, I agree with Danmark that we are discussing FOURTH REICH decorative reproductions to meet increasing market demand.

Here is the possible problem I see with the last posting. In a long past discussion with Tom (aka "Swordfish") he immediately picked up on the early brass well defined Lionhead I posted as a Voos because of a couple of signature characteristics. Something that I see with the earlier posted swords, but not the latest ones. Not that I'm saying anything is necessarily wrong because makers did do sales of components to each other. Best Regards, Fred

[stakeside]

The Lionhead eagle shows even more variation. All examples appear to have breast feathers added by hand after the die impression had been made to the mould.

I propose that we buy another round of beer for DANMARK ! ! !

[Frogprince]

The Lionhead eagle shows even more variation. All examples appear to have breast feathers added by hand after the die impression had been made to the mould.

I propose that we buy another round of beer for DANMARK ! ! !

My mistake, the above image of the aluminum/or base metal hilted sword is not the Lionhead I was referring to that is brass and closer in design to the Seilheimer in some respects. Having a conventional Swastika, and IMO better quality hand detailing than the Seilheimer - while still having the Voos characteristics. Best Regards, Fred

[stakeside]

FROGPRINCE....I must make it clear that I am not talking about the breast feathers on the SEILHEIMER, but all others which resemble the OP eagle under discussion and appear to be impressions of the same die....Doug.

[reneblacky]

Just my two cents, I read somewhere the WH swords wern't ever under scrutiny of the RZM system, hence the eagle quality variations.

[Larry C]

Just my two cents, I read somewhere the WH swords wern't ever under scrutiny of the RZM system, hence the eagle quality variations.

These swords were deemed non political and were not under RZM control..yet some SS officers wore them in parade...but not sanctioned politically by the SS.

SS degens were considered " Kultural " or those marked by specific producers and thus separated from the RZM.
SA , SS NSKK and HJ ..Political branches..swords not included.

Field Marshall swords of the Third Reich not under any political control except from the producers QC department within.

My dog in this fight is not with the authenticity of the sword and its components..its for the fact of the NS doctrine and what the Swastika stood for.

The fittings debate are for the current participants.
Onward and forward Gents ....Great Thread

Regards Larry

[Frogprince]

FROGPRINCE....I must make it clear that I am not talking about the breast feathers on the SEILHEIMER, but all others which resemble the OP eagle under discussion and appear to be impressions of the same die....Doug.

Doug, there's no argument that a master pattern for a casting mold could transfer it's pattern to the object being cast. But that process normally leaves an overall granular appearance that can still be seen inside the socket area for the leather buffer, so they followed up with hand finishing to bring out the fine details and/or added them. Best Regards, Fred