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McCord manufacture Lot transition range

Article about: Trying to find the McCord M1 shell transition ranges for fixed/movable loops, stainless steel/manganese rims and front/rear seam. Therefore, I compiled this little list. Based on shells I ow

  1. #1

    Default McCord manufacture Lot transition range

    Trying to find the McCord M1 shell transition ranges for fixed/movable loops, stainless steel/manganese rims and front/rear seam. Therefore, I compiled this little list. Based on shells I own or have owned, shells I have seen myself, and a good chunk of internet shells. There are many more internet shells of interest, but I only included ones that had enough images/right images to reasonable be sure of the data.

    Now I figure there must be a relative narrow range for fixed/movable loops, in that I imagen a production line machinery change must be implanted. On the other hand rim material change, I imagen does not really require a machinery change and/or method change. Therefore, I figure a much large range. I would expect the same with the seam join as with the loops, a narrow range.

    Reading Watertown Arsenal reports it is very clear that while there might be a general thread when lot numbers transition from one “version” to another, there must also be a number of shells that lay vastly outside this general thread. Reading example Watertown Arsenal reports 710/720 (January 1945) on ballistic test, they receive reduced draw finished shells (reduced draw shells are shells not drawn as deep as normal) in the range 400-500, 900-1000 and 1200-1300 in November 1944, from a request started in August 1944. Now the only way McCord can fulfill this request is to have shell disc laying around, already stamped, but not used yet. This alone opens up a whole new cane of worms – various shells thought of as retro fitted, repaired, straight up fake, might not be! They might in fact just be the odd lot number, the stack of stamped discs that lay way back on McCord’s plant, and just got used 6-24 month after arrival, thus receiving the newest accessories.

    It seems that the change to manganese rims, and a tat bit later, rear seam joined rims, coincide with the beginning of edge-annealing on the shells. Edge annealing was done initial on the visor only but a little later on the whole edge of the shell. This was to combat delayed cracking, because of residual stress. Defects was of course expected, and 2.5% of all McCord helmets prior to may 1943, cracked after being delivered to the Army, on account of delayed residual stress. Initial edge annealing was done using a rapid heating and quenching cycle in a seam-welding machine. Later using a high frequency induction-heating unit developed by the Ohio Crankshaft Company.

    Of the very first 200.000 McCord helmets drawn, 30% was defective after the draw. This was progressively decreased until it leveled out at 2%.

    Number Loop Rim Seam
    732 C Fixed SS Front
    745 C Fixed SS Front
    754 B Fixed SS Front
    768 A Movable SS Front
    787 C Movable SS Front
    812 A Movable SS Front
    830 B Movable SS Front
    839 D Movable SS Front
    858 C Movable SS Front
    895 G Movable SS Front
    900 C Movable SS Front
    907 E Movable SS Front
    926 K Movable SS Front
    963 K Movable SS Front
    982 A Movable Mang Front
    987 G Movable SS Front
    988 A Movable Mang Front
    999 G Movable SS Front
    1016 B Movable Mang Front
    1016 C Movable Mang Front
    1019 B Movable Mang Front
    1022 J Movable SS Front
    1023 G Movable Mang Front
    1030 H Movable SS Rear
    1047 A Movable Mang Front
    1060 A Movable Mang Front
    1086 F Movable Mang Front
    1118 B Movable Mang Front
    1163 C Movable Mang Front
    1165 7 Movable SS Rear
    1187 A Movable Mang Rear
    1187 7 Movable Mang Rear
    1195 D Movable Mang Rear
    1205 H Movable Mang Rear
    1227 B Movable Mang Rear
    1235 F Movable Mang Rear
    1284 A Movable Mang Rear

    It would be nice if some of you who have McCord shells in the 750 range and 970-1200 range, could list their data.
    Last edited by Twthmoses; 11-12-2020 at 08:36 PM.

  2. #2

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    Interesting thread, I will look at mine as soon as possible.

    Marty
    Fortune favors the brave 644th td

  3. #3

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    Great thread. Thank you for taking the time to put together.
    John

  4. #4

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    Just added a few more shells.
    Now i know that each lot number only have approx. 2000 shells, but I was wondering i any of you ever seen the same lot number with exemple a different rim?

  5. #5

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    2 more for you 196C, 344C fixed Loop McCord. I will have more tomorrow.
    Last edited by tank destroyer; 11-22-2020 at 01:36 AM.
    Fortune favors the brave 644th td

  6. #6

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    One more.

    A McCord reissued by the Netherlands: 743 C , fixed bales, stainless steel, front seam.

    Cheers,
    Emile

  7. #7

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    I have always thought form everything I have been able to read on the subject (we are unlikey to find direct annecdotal evidence here in UK) that the idea of the heat stamp / lot number being a means of dating the production of M1 shells to be one of approximation at best and I have always been more reliant on configuration, condition,circumstance and if you are lucky, provenance. However, I do not specialise so I don't want to seriously disagree, I just think it a little optimistic totry and accurately date by this means.

    However, of the three fixed bale shells in my collection only one has a fully visible stamp; 156C.

    I know this is well away from the number range you are asking about but it might still be of interest.
    If one accepts the dating system based on these numbers I think this would be a mid 1942 shell?

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

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    Thank for the numbers. It was not my intension to make a complete Mccord list, but rather just in the transition ranges 700-800 and 900-1200. However right now I am logging any WW2 Mccord number in two lists, 0-700 and 700-1200+. Hopeful I will some day see some 1300+ shells.

    So far I have gather the following information - all subject to change when more samples are available. Mind that there is no guaranty that lot numbers was draw in sequence, indeed more likely they were not, at least not always. I assume there will be the odd lot number, the 20 leftover discs in a stack that did not make the draw, before the stacks got replenished with new lot numbers. Anyway so far here goes:

    -Fixed to movable loops was a sharp transition around lot 757.

    -Carbon loops began being introduced around Lot 780. Stainless and Carbon steel was used indiscriminately from that time on.

    -Manganese steel rims was introduced around Lot 900, progressively switching from stainless steel to manganese steel, stainless steel becoming less and less common and manganese steel more and more common. Around Lot 1000 manganese steel rims amount to around 80-90%. Have not seen any stainless steel rims after Lot 1165.

    -Rear / front seam transition does not look as sharp as I would expect. More samples is needed. The change seem to occur around Lot 1120, however there are samples of earlier Rear seam (1030) and later samples of Front seam (1163 & 1197), which would make the transition period covering 150 lot numbers. Unusual long in my view. However, maybe I am simply wrong in my assumption that this change requires a machinery change/setup. Maybe the same setup can handle either, and it is only the man in front of the machine that decides if it becomes rear or front. A low Lot number with late shell characteristics can be explained away, as already mentioned, the 20 odd discs in the bottom of the stack. They were simply draw much later, thus acquiring late shell characteristic. However, the late lot numbers with early shell characteristics is more difficult. One can imagine that the manufacture plant simply handles say 200 lots simultaneous and it just panned out this way. Another possibility is that it was repaired later, like loops attached later. Broken rims might also have been repaired later.

    -The so-called fixed loops dot. Up to around Lot 500-550 shells have a punch mark in the rim around center of the loops. It is a very significant punch mark, deep and easy to see on the inside of the rim. Sometimes it is stamped so deep it produces a good bulge on the outside of the rim. Now I have not paid to must attention to pre-700 lot numbers, but I do now. Somewhere between 550-650, they stopped doing this punch. Instead, there is now a slight depression on the outside around the center of the loop. Can be hard to see or even feel because of paint and texture. Some production change must have occurred in this range. I have read that this dot,- either the deep one on the inside or the more subtle depression on the outside, is to know where the loops must be attached. Do not know if it is so.

    A McCord 324D. You can clearly see the deep punch marks by the loops.
    McCord manufacture Lot transition rangeMcCord manufacture Lot transition range
    McCord manufacture Lot transition range

    A McCord 701F. Shell has a fixed loop on one side and a movable loop on the other side. The movable loop was a later add on. There is no deep punch mark, but rather a depression on the outside of the rim. You can see the spot welding from the loops on the outside. On the side with the movable loop, both the three spot welding from the new loop, as well as the two old from the fixed loop.
    McCord manufacture Lot transition rangeMcCord manufacture Lot transition range
    McCord manufacture Lot transition rangeMcCord manufacture Lot transition range
    McCord manufacture Lot transition rangeMcCord manufacture Lot transition range

  9. #9

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    Quote by Watchdog View Post
    I have always thought form everything I have been able to read on the subject (we are unlikey to find direct annecdotal evidence here in UK) that the idea of the heat stamp / lot number being a means of dating the production of M1 shells to be one of approximation at best and I have always been more reliant on configuration, condition,circumstance and if you are lucky, provenance. However, I do not specialise so I don't want to seriously disagree, I just think it a little optimistic totry and accurately date by this means.

    However, of the three fixed bale shells in my collection only one has a fully visible stamp; 156C.

    I know this is well away from the number range you are asking about but it might still be of interest.
    If one accepts the dating system based on these numbers I think this would be a mid 1942 shell?

    Regards

    Mark
    I on your page. Dating is not the subject of this little research. I’m not dating lot numbers, I’m simply trying to figure when manufacturing changes occurred based on lot numbers, not when these lots was actually draw.

    There exist only a handful of exact dates for lot numbers. The rest is extrapolated based on known before or after date as well as general manufacturing statistic.

  10. #10

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    Quote by tank destroyer View Post
    2 more for you 196C, 344C fixed Loop McCord. I will have more tomorrow.
    I assume these are stainless steel loops, stainless steel rims, front seam, and do have a punch mark inside the rim about center of the loop?

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