Lebel Mle 1886 M93 Barrel Serial Number Question

[Correus]

Hello everyone -

I recently ran across a Lebel Mle 1886 M93 that is in really good condition. The owner is looking at selling it. He has owned it for over 30 years, never fired it and keeps it in a gun safe. He only brings it out of the safe for periodic display and it's "once-a-year" cleaning and oiling.

One thing that bothers me...all of the SNs match, however the SN on the left side of the barrel is gone. The prefix/block letter is there yet the numbers aren't. It's as if they were erased somehow.

Any idea why this one would have been eradicated yet all the others left intact?

[PRE]

Do the letter prefixes match those on the rest of the rifle?
Pat

[Correus]

Do the letter prefixes match those on the rest of the rifle?
Pat

Yup.

Here is the pic wherein the SN looks like it has been done away with. If you enlarge it the prefix letter gets blurry but the space where the number ought to be is worse. I have seen where numbers have been stamped so close to where the stock is that you have to look down on it. The lighting doesn’t help either.

The second and third pics are on the stock as well as on the breech - those are very clear.

[PRE]

That's weird, and something I've never seen on a military surplus rifle.

It's great that all of the rest of the numbers match, but transferring this one will be a bit of a stumbling block. If it's an antique (check the date on the right side of the barrel), you're good to go as this can be done without paperwork or a licensed dealer acting as the transferring agent. If it's dated later than 1898, there could be some issues, notably the fact that this one has had it's serial number deliberately obliterated/removed. I'm not implying that your friend did it, but the absence of the serial number on the one part of the rifle that counts as a firearm in the US has potential to create problems.

Let us know how you do.
Best,
Pat

[Correus]

Yup...I've never seen anything like it either. Fortunately the barrel is dated 1888; complete number is "MA S 1888". The barrel also has the "N" stamp.

Unfortunately he will only ship via an FFL holder. He's paranoid that since the rounds are centerfire (8x50R), and can still be purchased "through normal channels" (Privi Partizan) that it's required to go via FFL.

[PRE]

No, not true. Centerfire ignition vs. rimfire ignition has nothing to do with it AT ALL. By the date of the rifle, it is an antique. Legally that means in the US it is NOT a firearm, and is thus not subject to laws regarding firearms. That's exactly why you see antique rifles on places like Gunbroker.com asking only for a DL or similar ID to close the deal on a sale, as opposed to needing an 01 or 03 FFL.

Here's the Federal definition of a firearm, per the BATFE:
18 USC 921(a)(3):
https://www.atf.gov/file/55371/download

Note the exception for an antique:

"For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade." (26 USC 5845G)

Here's some elucidation on the rimfire vs. centerfire thing:
"...and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

Just because Prvi Partizan of Serbia decided to manufacture this stuff to meet the desires of a niche surplus rifle enthusiasts' market doesn't turn this on it's head. You're on solid legal ground regardless of the removal of the serial number. I never thought I'd see an exception to this, but the clear antique status of the rifle in question makes this so. I wouldn't be writing this response if the manufacture date was later than 1898, but this one made the cut.

Pat

[Correus]

Thanks Pat -

You were able to explaine it a lot better than I was. I'll pass this on to him.

I have run into something else though....

UPS and the USPS ....

I live in the Midwest and he lives on the Southeast Coast. It would seem to me that since it is an antique firearm, and NOT subject to the "transfer" regulations, they would not be subject to the shipping rules that post-1898 firearms are.

Do you know if this is correct?

Following is from the ATF website. No mention is made of antique firearms just "transferrable".

Thank you again Pat - if only you knew how much I appreciate it.

[PRE]

Correus,
No problem. Like centerfire vs. rimfire, the carrier you choose doesn't matter, either. It's a non-issue. Personally, I'd go with the USPS for shipping rifles based on nothing more than handling and more delivery options. It's status in no way determines which carrier to use.
Pat

[Correus]

Correus,
No problem. Like centerfire vs. rimfire, the carrier you choose doesn't matter, either. It's a non-issue. Personally, I'd go with the USPS for shipping rifles based on nothing more than handling and more delivery options. It's status in no way determines which carrier to use.
Pat

Thanks Pat!

I actually JUST found what you said above. The ONLY firearms the USPS concern themselves with are those that are regulated. Based on what I read on the USPS site you don't even have to tell them it's an antique firearm. All you have to attest to is that you aren't shipping something hazardous or dangerous or something liquid and such. The also state, that in regard to regulated firearms - which would be good advice for antique firearms - you are NOT to have any type of markings on the package indicating what's inside.

Hell's bells...I've even had collectors in Europe send me WWI grenades listed as "antique clock weights". One guy sent me a WWI German potato masher. He unscrewed the head from the handle; placed them in separate boxes and then place the two boxes in a box. For the contents he listed the head as a "vintage soup can - empty" and the handle as an "antique farm implement handle"!!

Hopefully this will be enough to calm his nerves. What worries me is if he insists on going through the FFL guy and what the FFL guy will do if the SN is indeed missing. Technically it sounds like he shouldn't do a thing, just hand it over, since it isn't a "regulated firearm". The way my luck goes I could see him seeing the that the SN was erased, freak and call the ATF!!

[PRE]

Yeah, I know what you mean. This is a classic example of 'a little learning being a dangerous thing.' Some firearms laws are irksome at best, but some people will go out of their way to make everything more difficult and more needlessly complex than it is, or needs to be. These are the ones I avoid doing any business with.

For the purposes of anyone looking at this thread for information later on, I can't understate the problems that would come with a firearm with a removed/obliterated serial number. These are viewed as a presumptively deceptive measure taken to avoid tracing back to a stolen firearm report. The antique status of your rifle in question makes this a moot point, but I have to wonder what the motivation of the previous owner was to so thoroughly remove a serial number on a rifle so long ago, and of a type that is highly unlikely to have been discharged in the course of a crime. Even more so is the presence of matching serial numbers everywhere else. Only an idiot would remove the numbers like that to avoid being traced to a stolen record, and in the process skyline themselves in such an obvious way.

Pat