General Paint and Decal question

[Taylor820]

Greetings:

I have some simple questions and I am hoping people can help answer them. I noticed that some helmets have rougher texture paint on them, almost like it has been brushed on.

1. I would expect factor paint to be smooth, but I don't really now. Is this re-painting? Does it degrade the helmets value? Is it just a normal part of maintance? I don't want to obssess over this. Just trying to understand.
2. I see some decals look like they were placed over old decals (example is a Swedish helmet). Is this just typical of refurbishment? Are decals easily faked? Are there indicators for this?
3. Final question --- any recommended books on helmets? I would like to get one for my son for Christmas?

Thanks. Lots to learn in this space.

Cheers

[Tinhat]

Welcome!

I would expect factor paint to be smooth, but I don't really now. Is this re-painting?
Factory issued helmet would normally be smooth or textured paint, texture can be applied by adding sand or sawdust, either way the finish is much more uniform. I would consider anything brush painted as a post factory application and could be for many reasons like refurbishment, camouflage, reissue to another org like civil defense or reuse by another country.

Does it degrade the helmets value? Is it just a normal part of maintance?
I can do, its dependent on the helmet and what its been repainted for. The challenge is knowing if it is period or done last week.

I see some decals look like they were placed over old decals (example is a Swedish helmet). Is this just typical of refurbishment? Are decals easily faked? Are there indicators for this?
Its not typical but happens, reproduction decals are easily available, and there’s no shortage of unscrupulous people. It’s a huge problem with German helmets but also creeping into other country helmets, reproductions often have some error or difference that makes them identifiable. If in doubt share images here.

Final question --- any recommended books on helmets? I would like to get one for my son for Christmas?
There are plenty of books but most are specific to certain types or countries, if you are early in the collecting phase I would recommend this book for a wide helmet overview of history and types ‘Tin Hats to Composite Helmets: A Collector's Guide’ I think is a good start and one of the more affordable, a little bit hard to find now but Amazon has used ones.
Amazon.com

It gets a bad rap at times because it’s trying to cover so much but the best alternative 'Combat Helmets of the World' is very expensive these days. If you have a more specific area of collecting there will be better books.
Amazon.com

Steve.

[Taylor820]

Thanks for the information. It was very helpful. The basic book does look like a good place to start. The other book is about $200!

I am new to the idea of collecting. I could never quite get whst made it a challenge. Just go to the store and buy it. But it is pretty complicated when trying to buy something remote, not knowing the seller and fakes (or refurbished) pieces floating around — or maybe the majority?

We have bought from eBay, in stores (while traveling), with an individual collector. Those have been pretty good experiences. The worst was buying from a reputable store on line. They had a stock photo and warned of a particular deviation but an entirely different deviation was shipped. We were not happy and could not get it made right so lost a lot in shipping.

This is mostly for my kid, with me subsidising at some level if he learns something. So we stick to “off brand ww2” helmets. But this is tricky too. Sparse transactions.

Anyway. Thanks for the tips. I will avoid whet look like double decals and maybe not worry too much about the paint if things like decals look reasonable. Goal is to have fun and learn something and enjoy some history.

Btw — love your picture — my son says this is some sort of meme.

Cheers

[Tinhat]

My Dad was a huge part in supporting my collecting early on, mainly it was driving around looking for helmets because it was pre-internet, I never had the maturity in time to understand what gave up to do that and thank him - don't underestimate what you are doing I guess is the story there.

Back to helmets, it can be a bit daunting but there is also a lot more access to knowledge now, this is by far the best on-line resource World War Helmets - Accueil and its free to join.
Some advice if you are buying at the lower end budget for WWII helmets, there aren't many around these days so be careful.
1. eBay is a great tool if you search under 'Advanced' and 'sold' items you can get the price people paid, that's your guide line, if there is a variation you can check the photos to see what would generate that difference.
2. If it looks too good to be true, it generally is.
3. Share it here, its better to miss out than spend money on something bad. There will be other opportunities.

The photo, that's how I feel when my kids what me on my phone
The Story Behind This Incredible Photo Of A Snow Monkey Using An iPhone - 500px

If you are down my way, let me know, I'll be happy to open the boxes and show some stuff off.
Steve.

[Taylor820]

I will take you up on the offer to review helmets. I think it is the best way to learn.
I found three that seem like they have promise, but all have flaws (they are old...) but not certain how to balance them
1. First one has paint running paint and the decal has drips
2. Second one is a bit in rougher shape, and has an orange mark on it, which the seller believes is rust from another helmet stacked in it. But the seller does not like to touch the helmets
3. Third one is in decent shape except for dents on top and shadows of other decals (it is also the most expensive)

Which one ? Any of them? Not a 100% on any of them, but I don't think perfection is in the cards. Was looking for a good decal, good liner and decent paint (not perfect) and something that was not fixed up in someones garage recently...

If we near Bend, would be interested in stopping by --- I have been there once and really liked it.



Helmet 2


Helmet 3



Helmet 1:

[Tinhat]

I would say there is nothing wrong with any off them, they are all in good condition for a helmet that’s potentially 80 to 100 years old. They are all different.

Hopefully Greg will read this, he has more knowledge on these helmets than me.

1. M21 High or M21-18, decals applied after 1942.
2. M21 High or M21-18, painted shields (1940-1941) these were earlier than the decals, that’s a bit more interesting, I would guess harder to find.
3. M21 Flat, or M21-16 has more flared rim, from my memory harder to find than the high, possibly explains the price difference.

World War Helmets - Casque Modele 21
suecia2116

World War Helmets - Casque Modele 21
SUECO 21

Here is the helmet collecting conundrum, based on that do you want one, two or all three of them ……..

Steve

[JesperS]

Helmet 2 looks to me as having one of the 3 standard decals applied on October 1st. 1942 and not a painted shield. A painted shield would be from between 1940 to September 1942 but they are very rare and I wouldn't expect them to be that identical to the decals.

In general, Swedish M21 Low, M21 High and M26 helmets in original colour and WITHOUT decals are much more unusual than with the decals. This is because all existing helmets were to have decals applied on October 1st 1942.

All 3 of the above helmets look good to me. Outside experimental versions, Swedish helmets are very cheap and easy to obtain as long as you stick to the standard versions, so it's not very likely anyone would bother tampering with them.

If the price difference isn't too much I would go for helmet 3 (M21 Low) as it is a bit more unusual than the M21 High. And I wouldn't worry about the contours of other decals - about 2/3 of mine has that as well .... Or you could do as Steve suggests and get all three.

/Jesper

[Taylor820]

Getting all three lowers the purchase regret risk but increases divorce risk. The later seems much more costly. It is a balance, because the collection is popular w/ in certain segments of the household, but not all.... I think the later helmet might be had for ~ $200. It is more than I was hoping for but these are old pieces and the liner and decals are fragile. Was hoping for closer to $100...

Thanks so much for the input on the helmet. I did read the links which I found interesting. I find the canadian site kind of hard to use. The translations keep switching back to french... But both links are excellent.

I have done some more digging and found this reference --- which I think matches up w/ your decal references

The decal of this helmet is a 1940/1941 model because it does not have
>>> any outline; the 1942 model has a light black or white outline and
>>> the
>>> late war model has a thick black outline

But I am surprised to hear most your helmets have the decal shadow. Do you know what is happening here? Are they re-applying and repainting?

This is what I got based on some back and forth from a dealer --- does this match up w/ your expectation?

>> The texture is typical. The helmet is the pattern M21 and most of them
>> were repainted just before or during the war to be ready for war, in
>> the same process that the new decals were applied.

Your comments are really appreciated. IT is a challege to find purchase in this space. I did purchase the tin hat reference book so many that will help.

[Tinhat]

Apologies for the late reply, had a weekend aways from screens.

On the subject of decals I will defer to Jesper’s knowledge to avoid confusion at your end.

It’s difficult for me to comment on the price, it been a long time since I looked at buying a Swedish helmet, $200 feels a bit high to me though.

Steve

[Taylor820]

The reply was super quick --- and I don't have any expectations on timing....

Help is much appreciated.