New research project!!

[MilitariaOne]

Greetings Phil,

I believe Willmore has correctly identified the shells’ type. Interestingly, I found this article by the unit’s commander The 2nd Division A. E. F. — 2nd Trench Mortar Battery which indicates the unit actually were issued medium mortars (Mortier de 58 mm type 2) for frontline’s use.

As such, my supposition is the image of Private Lindsey holding those two larger TM’s round was likely taken while the unit was being trained-up at the First Corps (Trench Mortar) School, located at Gondrecourt, France.

Additionally, the simple fact he is wearing a campaign hat implies he is not “at the front” during the photograph’s taking. While at the school, the battery would have been trained on a variety of French Trench Mortars’ systems, which is (likely) why he’s showing off the two “big ones” for the Signal Corp’s Photographer who originally took the photo. Being in a rear area’s training center also would have allowed him to wear his campaign hat without getting grief from his NCOs for doing so (this was a common practice before enough overseas caps were issued).

Best,

V/r Lance

[AZPhil]

Thank you Lance for your thoughts and additional information.
The family did say that the photo is before he was gassed, Which according to this document that Matt from USMF found , It was July 4th 1918 he was gassed. Family said it was July 18th 1918.



Cropped that section



So that being him during training in France before the battle makes sense.
Great site and a thank you for the link.
But one thing about what he is holding and what is said about the projectiles used for the Mortier de 58 mm type 2 still has me asking some questions.

It talks about "Wings" and "Hollow Tails"
Is that talking about the flight fins on the base of a mortar round????

Here is the projectile section of that link for the Mortier de 58 mm type 2

"3 types of bomb were available:[9]

Light L.S. bomb - 18 kg (40 lb), containing 5.35 kg (11.8 lb) of explosive. 6 wings, hollow plugged tail.
Heavy D.L.S. bomb - 35 kg (77 lb), containing 10 kg (22 lb) of explosive. 6 wings, hollow plugged tail.
Medium A.L.S bomb - 20 kg (44 lb), containing 6.4 kg (14 lb) of explosive. 3 wings, unlike the other 2 it has a hollow tail which contained the propellant charge, placing thrust closer to center of gravity and increasing range and accuracy. Not yet in common use as at March 1918."


If so, The rounds being held by James don't look like they have wings or Tails.

Are these Mortar rounds or something else he is holding?

Semper Fi
Phil

[MilitariaOne]

Greetings Phil,

The mortar used by the battery in combat was the 58mm Medium Trench Mortar, the ones he's holding in the photograph are the much larger rounds for the 240m Heavy Trench Mortar. The battery would have had familiarization training with French Light, Medium, and Heavy mortars while at the Trench Mortar School. Sorry, for making this confusing.

Best,

V/r Lance

[AZPhil]

OK I gottcha,
Thanks for the clarification Lance.

I'll have to spend some time researching these round a little better.

Semper Fi
Phil

[AZPhil]

After looking into both of these mortars and their projectiles I am finding that,
The weight of the projectile for both the French or the US version of the 240mm, weighed in at between 180-192 pounds per projectile.

That would mean he is holding close to 360+ pounds in that photo. That is an amazing feat even in my Buff days as a Devil Dog.
Am I missing something or not finding the correct information about these?

Also looking at that photo expanded(Thanks Lance) the projectile in his hands does not look to be 9.45 inches in diameter judging by his finger tips vs the width of the projectile.?????
I want to push the I Believe button. But its these things that have me thinking the 240mm is to big for what I'm seeing.

Semper Fi
Phil

[Danmark]

Maybe the training rounds were lighter weight dummies Phil?.....otherwise his arms would have stretched to monkey length

Its probably a "look at me, i'm superman" staged photo.

[AZPhil]

I agree Dan.
I'm sure it is staged photo Opportunity. I don't think he would be playing around with live rounds. So possible training Inert rounds.

I believe the live rounds had the fuses in the nose and were contact type. If dropped, The next photo would have been of a crater.

I went back to some of the documents I got from Matt at USMF.
I was trying to see "How Big" was James.
What I have is his 1942 registration card. On that it states he is 5'6" tall and weighed 165lbs(24 years later)
Average height in 1918 was 5'2". So James is above average in the height department.

So I started looking at Body Mass Index for different time's for a 20 year old. (James was 28 in 1918)

If born between 1850-1870 the average weight was 138 lbs
If born between 1920-1938 the average weight was 155 lbs

James was born in 1890, So lets say around 145lbs at the time of photo.


So James might have been the Big Guy at that time.

I did ask one of my Young Marines who's into pounding steel. If he could do what is photographed?
Of course he said "YEAH sure I could". He's a Mean Green Fighting Machine!
But then when told how heavy, His facial expression changed and said "Not For Long and I wouldn't be smiling"

I have to do more research on those projectiles.
The one's I'm finding for the mortars of that size used by the US, French or British during WW1 do not look like what he is holding.
Back to digging!!
Thanks for the input!

Semper Fi
Phil

[08SMLE48]

Hey Phil,
Heard back from friends at the US Army FA museum and we kinda all agree they are most likely 155mm shells and a small chance of them being German 15cm arty or 17cm trench mortar shells. 155s weigh around 100 lbs so much more likely to hold two of those at once. And diameter of 155 is just over 6 inches and that looks right. Hope this help or spurs more conversation on the subject!

[08SMLE48]

Maybe the training rounds were lighter weight dummies Phil?.....otherwise his arms would have stretched to monkey length

Its probably a "look at me, i'm superman" staged photo.

Training and dummy rounds are supposed to be the same weight as live rounds so the chief can work his boys during drills so they are used to the real thing. I have a WWII M7B1 dummy which matches the M107 HE and they weigh the exact standard weight of 95 lbs. Nowadays we have a “training” HE that is low explosive charge but still replicates the weight of a regular HE shell

[Teck 147]

Hey Phil,
Heard back from friends at the US Army FA museum and we kinda all agree they are most likely 155mm shells and a small chance of them being German 15cm arty or 17cm trench mortar shells. 155s weigh around 100 lbs so much more likely to hold two of those at once. And diameter of 155 is just over 6 inches and that looks right. Hope this help or spurs more conversation on the subject!

Gentlemen they look like the German 15cm Granate 12. The 43,2 is the weight in Kilo, the less amusing Part is: the T-Stoff (xylyl bromide) Shell weighed almost exactly 43kg almost all other 15cm we're lighter