WW1 Service Dress Cap Oil Liner Thoughts?

[StrangerThings]

Minty Service dress cap or very cleverly crafted forgery? The seller claims its 1916 marked made by J.Collette C. ? save for the good condition and unknown hat maker it's a real looker.

[asterperious]

Nope sorry - not great war era - more like a marked up 1950's cap frankly. The materials , construction, chin strap and shape all suggest post WW II to me

[StrangerThings]

If it's no trouble can you elaborate further for me?

[William1]

Peak too large, strap too wide, lining materials don't look right for WW1. It's really not possible to elaborate beyond that. If you want to learn to tell the real thing you'll need to do your own research, for which Google Image Search is your friend. Along with a healthy dose of personal initiative.

[StrangerThings]

I think you're mistaking my post as a hand out for help instead of the intended chance for discussion and learning which is understandable when text doesn't translate tone.I'm having difficulties posting with pictures so unfortunately i'll have to include links instead.

While the peak is abnormally large, when compared to the "floppy" officer trench caps it's not all that different which can be found here;
http://www.monsmilitaryantiques.co.u...em.php?id=1782 and there are examples of First War SD caps having abnormally large bills including the following example;



which also shares a similar size of chinstrap albeit darker in colour, likely due to heavy polishing.

[StrangerThings]

As for lining materials I can attest that oilcloth head bands separate of the liners are very well documented during the first world war as seen in both the links below;

http://www.militarymodepublishing.com/campaign1914.pdf

and the Imperial War Museums own example here;

Cap, Service Dress 1905 pattern (SP 1912): O/Rs, British Army | Imperial War Museums

[William1]

I know Campaign 1914, in fact several items from my own collection are in it. No one disputes that oilcloth liners of this type were used in WW1 SD caps. The oilcloth in the cap yoiu posted doesn't look right; it looks thicker and doesn't sit quite the same way as in original WW1 caps. An arcane distinction perhaps, but one familiar to any experienced WW1 collector. Also I don't like that white colour of the backing material.

Officers' SD caps don't have any bearing on this as they had larger peaks, but the peak size for OR stiff SD caps in WW1 is always the small crescent shape, precisely as in the IWM example you've linked to. I don't know where that photo in Post 5 came from but unless the peak size has been dramatically distorted by the camera angle, that is categorically not a WW1 cap. If someone is trying to tell you it is, they are either lying or ignorant.

If my post seemed brusque and dismissive, that's because some people expect others to do all the research on their behalf. From your posts above you've clearly made an effort to do your own and I acknowledge that. I can only add - whether you believe me or not - that I do know what I am talking about, and so does the other poster on this thread. That doesn't mean we can't ever be wrong, but in this case we aren't. Always look for the small peak, the narrow chinstrap and the less robust, less plasticky oilcloth. You'll know it when you see it. The first cap you posted might be one of the J. Compton Sons and Webb batch that were made in the 50s and 60s and stamped with wartime dates by unscrupulous people. To add to the problems, some post WW2 SD caps were also made with the small peak so you have to watch out for those. Also faking of WW1 items is being carried out on a large and blatant scale, with about half a dozen ebay users in the UK achieving high prices for worthless tat. It's a minefield but worth persevering.

[Jerry B]

I think you're mistaking my post as a hand out for help instead of the intended chance for discussion and learning which is understandable when text doesn't translate tone.I'm having difficulties posting with pictures so unfortunately i'll have to include links instead.

While the peak is abnormally large, when compared to the "floppy" officer trench caps it's not all that different which can be found here;
http://www.monsmilitaryantiques.co.u...em.php?id=1782 and there are examples of First War SD caps having abnormally large bills including the following example;



which also shares a similar size of chinstrap albeit darker in colour, likely due to heavy polishing.

the cap from the dealers site is not WWI.

in my data-base of cap makers, I have nothing by Collett (a well known maker) earlier than WWII.

To my eyes, the peak is too big for WWI.