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WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?

Article about: A friend has recently tasked me with identifying several daggers discovered in his late mother's estate and this 2nd Pattern Luftwaffe Dagger was one of the pieces in question. I do not coll

  1. #1

    Default WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?

    A friend has recently tasked me with identifying several daggers discovered in his late mother's estate and this 2nd Pattern Luftwaffe Dagger was one of the pieces in question. I do not collect dress daggers and have none in my collection for comparison, however another dagger in the group turned out to be a 50s English-made reproduction Heer. The presence of a "tainted" piece immediately casts a shadow of doubt on the contents of the group. While I can find many positive traits in this Luftwaffe dagger there are just as many troubling details present too.

    The ricasso has a detailed makers mark that appears to be correctly etched, the "thermometer" matches up with other genuine examples I could find images of. The blade is unsharpened and shows expected scabbard wear. No detectable cross-graining is present. I took the dagger apart easily and noticed no markings on the internal blade tang. The crossguard Eagle is distressing as the feathers are noticeably less detailed than originals and crude in composition. The reverse pebbling looks adequate and the "simplified" Acorn and Oak Leaf motif can be observed on original Holler examples. The grip and it's braided cord both appear to be correct however the grip is broken underneath the crossguard cap, most likely due to over-tightening. The pommel cap has very "soft" details and does not match up well with genuine examples but I have seen several supposed originals with a similar look. The portepee shows wear from age and handling, it is similar in appearance to original examples I could find. The weave pattern of the fabrics appeared close to my eye but again, I do not have any original examples on hand to compare it with. The inclusion of the wooden bead is curious.

    Below is a link to the only dagger I could locate that was very close in appearance to the one in question:

    Wittmann Antique Militaria #49751C 2nd Model Luftwaffe Daggrt - F.W. Holler

    The scabbard does not match any 2nd Pattern Luftwaffe examples I could find. It appears to be made from a weak alloy, the finial end is noticeably deteriorating. The hanger bands are not securely fastened and can shift position if forced. The hanger rings are cleanly soldered together. The throat screw is easily removed and it's placement appears to be correct, though the discovery of Copper throat springs felt like a "nail in the coffin." The scabbard is also devoid of the Oak Leaf motif near it's finial end.

    I believe, at best, this dagger could have a few genuine parts incorporated but is most likely an older reproduction. I have handled several Late War Heer daggers and while the materials were inferior and the finishing was not up to Pre-War standards, they still had the look and feel of something produced in Germany. I would greatly appreciate the keen eyes and discerning opinions of the group on this piece.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?   WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  

    WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?   WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  

    WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?   WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  

    WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?   WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  

    WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  

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    Circuit advertisement WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?
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  3. #2

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    Images of the scabbard
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?   WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  

    WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?   WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  

    WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?   WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  


  4. #3

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    Here are a few images of the reproduction Heer dagger, they might help another collector avoid a misstep!
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?   WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  

    WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?   WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  

    WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?   WW2 German Luftwaffe 2nd Pattern Dress Dagger & Scabbard F W Holler - Parts Or Repro?  


  5. #4

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    Hi Komet, Your 2nd pattern luft dagger looks ok to me but the scabbard is from i believe a government officials dagger (maybe Eickhorn others will opine on originality) . As you say the army is a repro (made in spain i believe) no TR dagger had Berlin etched on the blade with the exception of SA's made by Halco. Regards Paul

  6. #5
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    I agree with Paul's assessment. The Luft from Holler seems good. The Government official and Diplomatic Dress Dagger I have only held once in hand. The scabbard single screw size and placement to me is not closer to throat rim like others I have studied and seems lower than on an Eickhorn scabbard. Also, the thickness of throat rim retaining runners seems thinner to me than others I have seen. Not sure I am 100% on scabbard but I could be mistaken. These daggers were and are highly faked so I am no expert on them.
    "It's not whether you get knocked down...It's whether you get up"



    My Collection: www.tothehiltmilitaria.com

  7. #6
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    Hello.
    The scabbard is not the Luftwaffe. I think the cross guard is not correct either. The crossguards I've seen have cast shoulder leaves, not engraved ones. There is indeed a match on Wittmann's site and he has published a reference book for Luftwaffe daggers, but no such cross guard is shown there.
    Wait for other opinions.
    Regards Georgi.

  8. #7

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    Many thanks Paul, Rossi and Georgi for your replies; they are greatly appreciated. I am happy that at least one of the daggers is good, as it is never a pleasant task to be the bearer of bad news!

    Paul & Rossi - Very interesting thoughts on the Diplomatic dagger scabbard, I have found several examples that really look close. The copper retention springs don't bother you? Always have heard copper on a Third Reich era blade was a bad sign.

    Georgi - I really thought the crossguard looked off and thought it was interesting that Wittmann had both the cast and the engraved versions for sale. His site was the only source I could find for a "genuine" example that was like the one in question. Really makes you wonder why he would not include both variations in his reference book! I have always found his presentation and inventory to be accurate but with that many pieces for sale I am sure a few "bad eggs" find themselves in the mix with the rest.

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    The scabbard is post war from what I can see showing a very large sweeping pebble pattern on the scabbard.

    This is an easy ID with post war Luftwaffe and Govt. scabbards ..mostly Spain produced.
    On Authentic examples its ok to see a more tighter / smaller circular pattern but not throughout the whole scabbard.

    Regardless ...this dagger has been parted together as well as adding a scabbard that doesnt belong.
    If Im incorrect about the scabbard being post war....I do not mind being shown why it is not post war.
    We are here to learn...but that large swirl pattern points to Spain.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #9
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    Hi Larry.
    What do you think about the cross guard?
    Regards Georgi.

  11. #10

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    Not a fan of the crossguard ....I have seen both crossguard types both showing the recessed and stamped oakleaves on the top of the guard.
    It also leads me to think this may be an alcoso guard or even postwar.
    There is alot of cast flaws seen on the crossguard eagle.

    This dagger is a mix of fittings.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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