Thanks Chris....
Thanks Chris....
Or, based on every bit of hard evidence presented so far:by 11C
4 variant Bahnschutzpolizei officer sleeve eagles.
No offense, but you still have not presented anything to support your claim about the alleged change of the orientation of the eagle's head on early SS sleeve eagles.
Wish I could prove it..........but to an insignia collector it's like asking a swimmer to prove water is wet. We know the eagle changed directions based on Hitler's order. The real question is when did it really change. The last eagle on the bottom right is the classic SS 1st Model.........you can count the feather sections to see that it is not Railway or Bahnschutz. Its head is also above its wing. The questionable eagle is the one on top(right top). There are pictures of SSVT bullion eagles in that exact wing structure facing to their left wing............in fact, I posted one. This one faces to its right wing. It is not a Railway eagle or Bahnschutz eagle. Based on it's wing structure it is SS. Why does it face right? I think I know why, but I'm willing to listen to another "theory".....theory because we do not have period pictures to support it being anything but an SS eagle looking right.
What sleeve eagles was the SS wearing prior to Hitler's order? I would love to be able to prove this eagle's linage, but as of now, I'll assume it's SS until someone proves me wrong.
For the benefit of the non-German speaking members, here is a translation of the above document:
"Decree
on the form of the national emblem of the State
of 7 March 1936.
Relating to section I of the decree on the national emblem of the state of 5 November 1935 (National Law Gazette I p. 1287), I decree:
The national emblem of the state shows the Swastika, surrounded by wreath of oakleaves, on top of the wreath of oakleaves an eagle with open wings. The head of the eagle is turned to the right.
The attached samples are binding for the heraldic design of the national emblem of the state.
Artistic designs for special purposes shall remain reserved.
Berlin, 7 March 1936
The Führer and Reichs Chancellor
Adolf Hitler"
Here is the earlier decree to which the above refers:
...Meaning:
"Decree on the national emblem of the state.
Of 5 November 1935.
So as to also give expression of the unity of the party and the state in its symbols, I decree:
Section 1
The state uses the national emblem of the National Socialist German Workers' Party as a symbol of its sovereignity.
Section 2
The national emblems of the armed forces are not affected by this.
Section 3
The decree concerning the national coat-of-arms and the national eagle of 11 November 1919 (National Law Gazette, p. 1877) is abolished.
Section 4
The Reichs Minister of the Interior, acting in agreement with the Deputy of the Führer, issues the regulations necessary for the execution of Section 1.
Berlin, 5 November 1935.
The Führer and Reichs Chancellor
Adolf Hitler
The Reichs Minister of the Interior
Frick
The Deputy of the Führer
R. Heß
Reichs Minister without portfolio"
What all of this means is that the national emblem of the state was officially identical to that of the party from March 1935 to November 1936 (= eagle looking to its left), after which an official distinction was made between the national emblem of the state (= eagle looking to its right) and that of the party (= eagle looking to its left, as before).
All well and good. However, I still do not see how this is even relavant here: The SS was always an organisation of the party, not the state (even though its armed formations were eventually financed by the state's budget) and as such would always have used the party eagle. The above change affected state organisations only.
Also, with all due respect: When it comes to the statement "I'll assume it's SS until someone proves me wrong", I have to say that this has already been done. Every available bit of evidence shows that the left-facing eagles are for the SS and the right-facing ones for the Bzp.
So far, we have seen (on this thread and in other online- and printed sources):
- Period documentation proving that the head of the eagle for party organisations was always to face to its left (and the undisputable fact that the SS was a party organisation).
- Period photographs of SS personnel wearing left-facing sleeve eagles (but none showing right-facing sleeve eagles).
- Period photographs of Bahnschutzpolizei personnel wearing right-facing sleeve eagles (but none showing left-facing sleeve eagles).
- Original examples of right-facing sleeve eagles that can be positively identified as being for the Bahnschutzpolizei due to their blue backing (but no left-facing ones).
- Original examples of Bahnschutzpolizei uniforms bearing right-facing sleeve eagles (but none with left-facing ones).
This does make for a rather conclusive case, I should say.
I have an open mind in these things and will gladly stand corrected should evidence materialize that proves the use of right-facing sleeve eagles by the SSVT (after all, much was still in flux during this period), but so far that hasn't been the case.
Last edited by HPL2008; 12-05-2017 at 05:35 PM.
It was also in those days quite confusing. I am looking for Hitler's final decision
from March 1937.
The Bahnschutz did not always use an eagle, which looked state. For the Bahnschutz Streifendienst-members
in mid-1936 the Reichsbahnpolizeiabzeichen was introduced for the left arm. The stand for the head was political.
This in contrary to the worn eagle for the headgear, which looked the other way around.
This is the best I have at hand at this moment. My best photo is in the USA for preparation
for the lay-out for volume 6. With that photo it is even better visible which was the stand
for the eagle's head.
The decision from March 16, 1937 is just related about the seals (Reichssiegel).
This just handles the seals to be used.
I did find a note from the "Uniformen-Markt", as published June 1, 1937. Here
Reichsleiter Bouhler mentions Hitler's final decision (nunmehr = by this time).
The political eagle had to look as how it was used during the period of struggle:
links gewendet. So, according to Heraldics this is looking to the right for the
viewer. The one for the state is the otherway around: schaut rechts, which is
left for the viewer.
Knowing the industry and manufacturers there always will be deviations
in designs. All wanted their product to be the final form. Who knows
what eagle forms were made at the end. We do not know, as we do not
have all the different samples and deviating orders!
With post 59 I do not see any political eagle. It is all state. Nor do I see any
railway eagle. By the way the railway eagle for the arm came into being in
spring 1941 (NOT earlier): see image. It was abolished not long thereafter
as then the direction-indications came into being.
Further I had a look in the RZM price-lists. The mid-1936 list for the SS
does not include any eagle for the arm.
Wilhelm.....In your opinion, the top eagle is Railway and the bottom eagle is not. What do you think the bottom eagle might be?
Come on, it's not just Wim's opinion:
It's a fact that this is not a railway officials' sleeve eagle, but another Bahnschutzpolizei one. The extremely short-lived 1941-model sleeve eagles for railway officials (discontinued after a mere 5 months) were of a different design and gold-colored.
The top one is the rare, special-pattern eagle introduced in 1944 for top-ranking railway officials (Ministerialdirigent up to and including Minister).
Note that both have wings that are 'drooped' not straight across.
Wilhelm.....In your opinion, the top eagle is Railway and the bottom eagle is not. What do you think the bottom eagle might be?
Bahnschutz are straight across.
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